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Pope John Paul II Sainthood
zidangus
Veteran
I have just been reading about Pope John Pauls sainthood, and how sainthoods are given out in the catholic church. Very interesting, reading the article below I am rather surprised how easily it is to be given a sainthood, the steps given are below
"The process, which cannot begin until at least five years after the candidate's death unless the pope waives that waiting period, involves scrutinising evidence of their holiness, work and signs that people are drawn to prayer through their example:
First stage: individual is declared a 'servant of God'
Second stage: individual is called 'venerable'
Third stage (requires a miracle attributed to candidate's intercession): beatification, when individual is declared blessed
Fourth stage (requires a further authenticated miracle): candidate is canonised as a saint for veneration by Church"
I wonder if the third and fourth stage have actually been authenticated scientifically or beyond reasonable doubt, hmm Im not convinced.
Saying that the choosing of the Dali Lama is not very scientific either. :rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13207940
With Metta
"The process, which cannot begin until at least five years after the candidate's death unless the pope waives that waiting period, involves scrutinising evidence of their holiness, work and signs that people are drawn to prayer through their example:
First stage: individual is declared a 'servant of God'
Second stage: individual is called 'venerable'
Third stage (requires a miracle attributed to candidate's intercession): beatification, when individual is declared blessed
Fourth stage (requires a further authenticated miracle): candidate is canonised as a saint for veneration by Church"
I wonder if the third and fourth stage have actually been authenticated scientifically or beyond reasonable doubt, hmm Im not convinced.
Saying that the choosing of the Dali Lama is not very scientific either. :rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13207940
With Metta
0
Comments
Buddhists choose the next head of the church based on even less rational facts. No criticism here except that this method is too open to the politicks and manipulation.
The message of most of the religions is almost the same.
However, it has got totally corrupted by politicians in robes through the ages.
The same goes for many other religions.
Pure manipulation of Koran.
How easy it is to obtain sainthood ? You have to create a miracle..twice! Seems rather impossible if you ask me.
Anyway what do I know, all this miracle stuff is beyond my comprehension. :wow:
With Metta
Regarding the Dali Lama, I believe he was considering appointing his successor himself, and not by the traditional method because of the political manipulation or outright fakery you talk about and even so, I think that the position of Dali Lama is more of a traditional position of status again an icon for tibetans, rather than someone special who was born to be the Dali Lama, but thats just my opinion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7103841.stm
And I agree with you there are areas of reality that lie outside the bounds of our everyday, logical minds, this I have no doubt about, moreover, a lot of good scientific theories have arisen out of the illogical.
With Metta
‘’there are areas of reality that lie outside the bounds of our everyday, logical mind’’
Exactly.
However, as soon you leave logical mind, you are open to interpretations, assumptions and emotions.
As to your statement:
‘’Do you think the Buddha attained enlightenment through science or by some other method?’’
Not science. However, ‘’there are areas of reality that lie outside the bounds of our everyday, logical mind’’
Exactly.
However as soon you leave this platform you are open to interpretations, assumptions and emotions.
As to your statement:
‘’Do you think the Buddha attained enlightenment through science or by some other method?’’
Not at all. However, enlightement is just a speculation.
''And I agree with you there are areas of reality that lie outside the bounds of our everyday, logical minds, this I have no doubt about, moreover, a lot of good scientific theories have arisen out of the illogical. ''
Could not agree more.
However, look at the price the humanity paid for it.
Believing for centuries that Sun was a God.
People who were burned at stake for claiming that the earth is not a middle of the universe.
Precedent scientists who went to the histories obscurity only because their views did not agree with churches teaching.
Religion has stopped science development only because it has questioned the faith its dogmas.
If you look at its history you will see also that there have been many attempts to dogmatize it.
With Metta
"The methods used to find the reincarnations of the Dalai Lamas and other tulkus is time-tested and works"
time-tested? how ? works how? by what standard? giving children toys ?
You look on most of the religions. They all come with the same ethics and philosophy.
What humans did to those is a different story.
It is the shame that humans are so easily indoctrinated.
After all, we want the same: happiness, moral conduct and the ultimate truth.
Just a motivation or a feeling what all this is about.
I think the freedom you talk about depends on how strictly a person wishes to follow a doctrine, be it the Buddhist Dharma or the Bible or the Quran etc etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patimokkha
With Metta
''10 people swear its true then it must be true ? if ten people feel it ? ''
Those are emotions.
Internet and the world is full of the same statements of people who will give life to claim something different.
Our consciousness and our emotion is just a subjective view?
The quicker we realize this better for us.
As to yor words:
'''time-tested? how ? works how? by what standard? giving children toys ?</''
The same way why we don't worship ''Ra'' - sun god. It took few hundred years to stop it.
Yes. I am so sorry for not being able to verbalize myself in English. It is not my language.
However, doctrine and following it might give a comfort but is not objective.
It gives an individual a relieve but at the same time is a huge obstacle to advance.
P.S Dont worry about your English it is better than mine
With Metta
This is no way I am trying to challenge you. I want to learn.
Could you elaborate on the above statement?
Anyway from what I have read the Buddha taught Dhamma-Vinaya, Dharma is the truth of what Buddha discovered and taught as advice for all who wanted to be free from suffering, and
Vinaya is discipline and is what Buddha gave as rules, ideals, and levels of behavior for those who wish to be freed in this lifetime (i.e monks). Buddha taught that both Dhamma and Vinaya are needed to function together if the Buddhas path is to be followed completely.
This is just a summary of what I have read and understand, the link is below, probably best if you have a read yourself as I am not a very good teacher.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.intro.html#intro1
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.intro.html
of course if I have misunderstood please highlight it, as I say I am by no means an expert on Buddhism and its teachings, and if I have misunderstood anything I would like to change this and begin understand it.
With Metta
Thanks so being so kind with your comments.
Fivebells : Why to delate your last post? It is spot on.