Death, Suffering, First Noble Truth

HappyMondays

If, as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche says in his book The Truth of Suffering and The Path of Liberation that:

"Death is a question of leaving everything that you want, everything you so preciously possessed and hung on to - including the dharma, quite possibly. It is questionable whether you will have enough memories and imprints in your mind to return to a new situation where the Buddhist teachings are flourishing. The level of your confusion is so high that you will probably end up being a donkey. I don't want to freak you out, particularly, but that is the truth. It is the first noble truth, the straight truth, which is why we can afford to discuss these subtleties. But death is not so subtle - it is terrible to die, absolutely terrible". Page 22.

Then what is the point of meditation? What is the point of following the path, meditating, cultivating mindfulness and awareness, and looking at ourselves, deepening our understanding.

I don't get it.

HappyMondays

Furthermore, I find Buddhist theory kind of scary, dense, and confusing. Not that I turn away from it, there is too much benefit, but I feel like I don't get it, like I might never get it.

ravkes

i don't even understand what he's saying in that paragraph

Furthermore, I find Buddhist theory kind of scary, dense, and confusing. Not that I turn away from it, there is too much benefit, but I feel like I don't get it, like I might never get it.

well from what i get from buddhism is.. see things as they are, when you dont then you suffer.. so try not to be an idiot.. but if you do end up being stupid and misperceive stuff as we all do because we generally don't have all the information about a situation, don't beat yourself up over it. simply see that it's just a situation that has been misperceived.

i guess really when you see things as they are, it's seen that life is a bunch of moment to moment situations to experience through an intelligence and a body

ravkes

and basically, you can't really experience the fruits of what buddhism talks about unless you actually adhere to a scientific approach to your everyday situations, constantly striving to see each situation objectively instead of through your own opinions, beliefs, views that tend to color what's actually happening..

what i've seen is that when i'm intelligent, life flows more smoothly, i get a long with people, i'm happier, i make better decisions, i make more money.. life on the whole is easy

Sabre

Dear HappyMondays,

Buddhism is a religion, so it is also about death. Of course it can be scary! Nobody ever said it would be easy. If you develop meditation you will have less fear and are more capable to face such subjects. That is really the goal of meditation, to liberate us and lose fear. But Buddhism is also about the beauty of love, happiness and friendship. Don't forget this

There is this beautiful song called Timshel by Mumford and Sons:
"Cold is the water
It freezes your already cold mind
Already cold, cold mind
And death is at your doorstep
And it will steal your innocence
But it will not steal your substance

But you are not alone in this
And you are not alone in this
As brothers we will stand and we'll hold your hand
Hold your hand"


For a more beautiful explanation on the subject of death, rebirth and no-fear I would refer to this series of videos. Thay is such a wonderful teacher.






With loving kindness,

Sabre

aMatt

Then what is the point of meditation? What is the point of following the path, meditating, cultivating mindfulness and awareness, and looking at ourselves, deepening our understanding.

I don't get it.

Consider that most of his books are transcripts of talks he gave during the 60s and 70s when many of his audience were deeply mired in samsara and spiritual materialism. I don't have that specific book, but if you keep the possible audience in mind, it might help reveal the intent of his words.

He had a lot of waking to do.

taiyaki

the point of meditation is to flower consciousness within you or in another words flower enlightenment. you are a lotus in the mud, with practice one can clean the mud away. the goal is liberation from suffering. the more you practice the better probability that you will awaken to your true nature.

on another note. there is no liberation. there is no suffering. there is no enlightenment. there is nothing to clean away for there was never any mud. you are already your true nature. you are already the buddha. you are always awakened. there is no separate self. there is just awareness in this moment.

so take those two apparently contradicting world views and smoosh them together. they're both right and that depends on where you are on the path to the gateless gate.

the goal is freedom from suffering, thus a total acceptance of it.

DhammaDhatu

hi HappyMondays

the first noble truth instructs "IN SUMMARY, clinging to the five aggregates is suffering"

death itself is not suffering. only believing "I will die" is suffering

the following teaching may help us understand

regards

DD:)

Ven. Sariputta said: "Now, how is one afflicted in body & afflicted in mind?

"There is the case where a person assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body and afflicted in mind.

:-/

"And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind?

There is the case where a well-instructed disciple does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

"This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.001.than.html

HappyMondays

Thank you everyone.

I am touched by your responses and thoughtfulness, each of you:)

I feel a bit shaken and slightly depressed, harsh on myself somewhat these days, reading about the four noble truths. It makes me think so much, trying to conceptually understand it all. Perhaps I am disappointed about not having any ground beneath my feet. And I'm scared.

I meditate 20 minutes in the first part of the day, and 20 minutes at night, practicing breath-meditation, shamatha. Through this, and reading/studying the dharma I guess I will come to understand these truths better?

Also, I feel, as a songwriter who has much anger, spite, passion, and ego to express, that I will only be spreading bad vibes that will come back to haunt me if I let them out. All this suffering stuff, and Buddhism seems so strict. Where's the rocknroll rule-breaking songwriter supposed to fit in in all this?

Confused in Montreal! Pondering the imponderables and not making much sense out of the ponderables either.... yeesh. Life.

Much love to you all, thank you for listening to me barf out my feelings.

Metta to you all,

Tim

compassionate_warrior

Furthermore, I find Buddhist theory kind of scary, dense, and confusing. Not that I turn away from it, there is too much benefit, but I feel like I don't get it, like I might never get it.

You take it a little bit at a time, you don't try to take in all the concepts at once. As far as your music goes, maybe expressing yourself will help others, by resonating with them, letting them know they're not alone, and possibly touching off a process that allows them to heal over time.

Finding a different translation of the 4 Noble Truths can be helpful. Instead of "suffering", use the word "frustration", or "stress". That might be not quite so depressing. Anyway, the happy ending is that there's a way out of the "dukkha", however you translate that word, and you've found it!

I'd take Trungpa with a large grain of salt. Try reading someone else.

HappyMondays

Yes, I suppose taking it more slowly is good, learning as I can. Though, life being precious, I don't want to waste time I suppose.

Also, I really try to take Trungpa with a grain of salt, but as a member of the Shambhala community, taking courses at the center there and having an instructor there, I kinda can't just not read him. He's actually part of the curriculum of the course I'm taking.

It's a challenge to not let myself feel overwhelmed or hard on myself. I think gentleness is the key here, though remembering that and feeling that is hard when the facts are so in your face.

But I hear your advice and will apply alot of it. I think it will be helpful!

Much love,

Tim

Jeffrey

Your not responsible for everyones state of mind who listens to your music. Of course there is some pretty negative music out there such as glorifying violence and demeaning women. Your not doing that are you? I always loved Morissey because so sad. And I loved some angry sounding music such as Built to Spill.

DhammaDhatu

I really try to take Trungpa with a grain of salt, but as a member of the Shambhala community

hi

it is best each of us decide & determine what we are after, that is:

(1) wisdom for this life we all live;

OR

(2) reassurances for life after death

if we are seeking the later, then, we are stuck with having to accept "religious beliefs"

but if we are seeking the former, then we try to understand what suffering is & how it affects us (and others) in the here & now

regards

HappyMondays

Your not responsible for everyones state of mind who listens to your music. Of course there is some pretty negative music out there such as glorifying violence and demeaning women. Your not doing that are you? I always loved Morissey because so sad. And I loved some angry sounding music such as Built to Spill.

Haha, no, no demeaning women... Though I love things like Wu-Tang. But that's the thing, sometimes the anger I express has a form of gleeful shockingness to it.... Not always, but there are some intense and angry and confrontational aspects.... It's almost a physical impulse. I mean, if you were in Wu-Tang Clan, could you be a Buddhist?

Funny you should mention Built To Spill. I played in a band that toured with them last summer! A fine band and great people.

HappyMondays

I really try to take Trungpa with a grain of salt, but as a member of the Shambhala community

hi

it is best each of us decide & determine what we are after, that is:

(1) wisdom for this life we all live;

OR

(2) reassurances for life after death

if we are seeking the later, then, we are stuck with having to accept "religious beliefs"

but if we are seeking the former, then we try to understand what suffering is & how it affects us (and others) in the here & now

regards

Well put. I would say I certainly seek the former, and yet in the last few days, despite myself, I feel the pain, confusion, and deep fear of dying. I don't want 'religious beliefs'.... I would like to come to terms with the truth.... On truth's terms. Perhaps you could say this is me suffering from the fear of death.

Thank you for your words:)

Metta and warmth to you,

Tim

DhammaDhatu

..in the last few days, despite myself, I feel the pain, confusion, and deep fear of dying. Perhaps you could say this is me suffering from the fear of death.

Thanks

In the "former", I am also including death, because our suffering relating to death occurs in our current life.

Death is one of the primary reasons why Prince Siddharta left home in search of truth and one of the primary reasons why the enlightened Buddha taught.

Indeed. The pain, confusion and deep fear of dying is probably the most significant form of suffering. This is why the Buddha included death in his 1st Noble Truth and regarded death as one of the five divine signs.

As long as you notice the "pain, confusion and deep fear" this is a good start for spiritual inquiry.

Naturally, Buddhism, as well as other religions, offer various means or methods to accommodate the suffering connected to death.

Regards

DD

HappyMondays

Thank you.

Spaceless

If, as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche says in his book The Truth of Suffering and The Path of Liberation that:

"Death is a question of leaving everything that you want, everything you so preciously possessed and hung on to - including the dharma, quite possibly. It is questionable whether you will have enough memories and imprints in your mind to return to a new situation where the Buddhist teachings are flourishing. The level of your confusion is so high that you will probably end up being a donkey.

In short, death is related to precious possession of world object and mindset including dharma. Unless your mind achives pure emptiness through meditation, confusion will end you up being a donkey mind that leads to terroble death. Well! continue your pursuit in next life, it is not end of life till you have actualized bodhicitta.
Om

Sabre

Yes, I suppose taking it more slowly is good, learning as I can. Though, life being precious, I don't want to waste time I suppose.

Also, I really try to take Trungpa with a grain of salt, but as a member of the Shambhala community, taking courses at the center there and having an instructor there, I kinda can't just not read him. He's actually part of the curriculum of the course I'm taking.

It's a challenge to not let myself feel overwhelmed or hard on myself. I think gentleness is the key here, though remembering that and feeling that is hard when the facts are so in your face.

But I hear your advice and will apply alot of it. I think it will be helpful!

Much love,

Tim

Take it easy, just take it easy. That's the best way to progress. If you are annoyed, you will take it with you in your meditation.. and meditation is more important than a theoretic understanding.

Keep smiling You don't need to pass an exam on the theory.

SherabDorje

Tibetan teachers often use hyperbole or overstatement to make their points, and Trungpa was certainly no exception to this.

Don't worry too much about "being reborn as a donkey". You will notice that even though Trungpa makes this apparently hyperbolic statement, he allowed for the possibility of not being reborn as a donkey. It looks to me like he was trying to make a point about "the precious human existence" and the necessity for practice, study, and right living. You can still do that.

It looks like if you are feeling these existential fears, he made his point with you about the precious human existence. His point is to cultivate, and cultivate rather urgently, because no one knows when death will come.

So the other side of the coin is to cultivate, so you're not reborn as a donkey.

Does anybody think I'm off base about Trungpa and overstatement?

fivebells

I think you're right on that count, although when he gave a speech consisting entirely of periodically repeating the word "hopeless," he was very much on the mark.

HappyMondays

Trungpa is definitely a character. An enlightened individual with a crazy take on it all. I think that he does overstate things, or at least, he's very much into shocking one out of stupor, shaking one awake with words, direct and potent. I think this is to point out that spirituality and life is not just what you hope/desire it to be. The ego can be misguiding and you can apply your own comfortable rules to the universe in order to be comfortable and stable, thus protected from awkening.... which can be intense. Hence the bravery of the Compassionate Warrior.

Nonetheless, when one has lived in anxiety and depression through life, thinking about precious existence and the possibility you could go at any moment ups the worry. Learning to take my own hand and gently guide myself to the edge to look at what going on deep inside. Gentleness. Sometimes elusive, always helpful.