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Found this...

edited January 2006 in Faith & Religion
Hello all,
Was trolling the internet and found this little gem. I have taken exception at some of the comments made, especially about the whole Theravadin/Mahayana supremecy. Just thought people here might be interested??????:skeptical

Buddha and God (1)
Reflections on Divinity within Buddha-Dharma

Buddha and God

By Dr. Tony Page

First published by Nirvana Publications, London 2000.

Re-issued (with numerous revisions) for this website, 2005.

Introduction
Is Buddhism (at least in its Mahayana manifestation) atheistic? This is a question which has preoccupied me throughout my 25-year-long study of the Buddha’s teachings and to which the usual answer of ‘yes!’ from most Buddhists has always struck me as highly questionable.
In this little book, I attempt to show that there is most definitely room for the concept of God within the vast structure of doctrines which constitute Mahayana Buddhism.
Many Buddhists will dismiss my claim as contrary to the Buddhist traditions which they themselves follow. But those traditions may in fact be at variance with what the Buddha in the ‘sutras’ (scriptural dialogues) and Tantras (mystical treatises of meditative and ritual instruction) are seen to teach. All I ask is that the Buddhist and sympathetic general reader look at the evidence which I shall present - evidence which is almost exclusively drawn from the purported words and teachings of the Buddha himself – and then make up their own minds. Buddhists perhaps more than any other religious group should cherish independence of thought and openness of mind. Blind obedience to commentarial Tradition (whether Tibetan, Sri Lankan or Indian, etc.) is in my view highly undesirable.
The present book is only a short and simple one, but I hope that it might help to cast Buddhism in a brighter, more positive light than is usually its fate at the hands of many ‘orthodox’ commentators. Buddhism, I feel, should not be excessively ‘doom and gloom’, but joyous, affirmative towards blissful Truth, and filled with invigorating faith in an immanent and transcendent cosmically intelligent, all-knowing Reality called BUDDHA or TATHAGATA. I also hope that this little book might encourage scholars more competent and skilled than me to pursue this investigation into the linkage between Buddha and God in greater detail and along similar lines. After all, not all Buddhists have denied God. As the great 20th-century Japanese Zen Buddhist monk and teacher, Sokei-an, rapturously affirmed:
‘The creative power of the universe is not a human being; it is Buddha. The one who sees, and the one who hears is not this eye or ear, but the one who is this consciousness. This One is Buddha. This One appears in every mind. This One is common to all sentient beings, and is God. We worship This One, therefore, we join our hands and bend our heads before This One" (From The Zen Eye, ed. by Mary Farkas,Weatherhill, New York, 1994, p.41).

But let us now turn precisely to the basic question: what is God, and does Buddhism actually teach of anything that can fairly be called God?

Chapter One: What is God?
Before we embark on our journey of exploration into the Buddhist sutras (scriptures) in quest of God, we need to define our terms: just what do we mean by ‘God’? Webster’s New International Dictionary defines ‘God’ in this way: ‘the supreme or ultimate reality: the Deity variously conceived …The one ultimate infinite reality that is pure existence,
consciousness, and bliss, without distinctions (as of time and space); the Being supreme in power, wisdom and goodness that men worship and to whom they pray; infinite Mind …’ (Webster’s Third New International Dictionary of the English Language, Merriam-Webster, Encyclopaedia Britannica, Chicago, etc., U.S.A. 1981, Vol. 1, entry for ‘God’, p. 973). John Ferguson’s Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Mysticism defines God as: ‘ … the Ultimate Being, usually conceived as personal …God as LOVE and as the Universal Self.’ (An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Mysticism and the Mystery Religions by John Ferguson, Thames and Hudson, London 1976, entry for ‘God’, p. 68). The Cambridge Encyclopaedia gives the following definition: ‘A supernatural being or power, the object of worship …In the mainstream Western tradition, influenced by Classical Greek philosophy and well as Christianity, God is conceived as “being itself” …; as absolute, infinite, eternal, immutable, incomprehensible (i.e. unable to be comprehended by human thought), all-powerful (omnipotent), all-wise (omniscient), all-good (omni benevolent), and everywhere present (omnipresent). He is also said to be impassable, or incapable of suffering.’ (The Cambridge Encyclopaedia Third Edition, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, U.K., 1997), ed. by David Crystal, entry for ‘God’, p. 460.
The key points which emerge from all of this are the Absoluteness, the Ultimacy or Supremacy of God. Whether conceived of as a person or as a Power (and God can be viewed under both aspects), God is the highest Reality, present in everything, limitless, undying, free from all suffering, unchanging, universally good, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-worshipful. Always God seems to be linked with the all-knowingness and wisdom/super-cognition of Absolute Mind. We must keep out eyes open for these qualities and attributes in the descriptions of Buddha and Dharma (cosmic Truth) which follow.

What, then, do the Buddhist sutras teach which has any bearing upon these exalted notions?

Chapter Two: The Basic Buddhist World-View
There are at the present time at least two main divisions - speaking very broadly - of Buddhism active in the world: the Theravada ('Doctrine of the Elders') and the Mahayana ('Great Vehicle/ Great Causeway'). In this book, we shall focus chiefly upon Mahayana Buddhism - the more 'developed' or expanded form of the religion.
The vision of life which Mahayana Buddhism offers is essentially the following: there exist infinite numbers of universes, which emerge, endure for immense stretches of time, fade and die, only to be reborn. Within these universes are also infinite numbers of beings, who are likewise born, live for varying lengths of time, fade, die and then undergo rebirth into some other mode of existence. The moral Law which governs these rebirths is called Karma, and according as a being thinks, speaks or acts with intentional kindness or selfishness/malevolence, he or she will experience varying degrees of happiness or suffering in consequence.
There are six different realms or categories of being (gatis) within which a person can find rebirth: the Hell realm (for those who have been exceptionally cruel and evil); the 'hungry ghost' realm (for beings who are very greedy and materialistic); the animal realm (for those beings possessed of lower intelligence yet more passion than the human creature); the human realm (where there is a mixture of intelligence, stupidity, suffering and happiness - as well as varying levels of moral attainment); and finally the heavenly or 'godly' realm (which is characterised chiefly by great happiness). None of these realms or states, however, lasts forever. Beings stay in these realms only for as long as their Karma (the energy generated by their intentionally activated good and bad deeds) dictates.
This cycle of life, death and rebirth within the six realms of existence is called "samsara". It is seemingly endless, and overall the constant changes it brings with it cause much suffering (an important preoccupation of Buddhism) - unless the being is able to liberate himself or herself from the cycle of rebirths and pain into the ultimate, blissful realm of undying peace and eternity called Nirvana. Nirvana is a sphere, realm or state (visaya) beyond all the other six "gatis", and transcends all human comprehension. It is the highest possible happiness - and it endures forever and beyond. It is the profoundest Knowledge (jnana), and the utmost purity. It is the Absolute. The beings who have reached Nirvana and who are guides to all others on this quest for spiritual Liberation (moksha) are called fully Awakened Buddhas. Although they are infinite in number, their essence is one. It is in this sense that we can speak of the Buddha or the Tathagata (the 'One gone to Thusness') - a being in whom the Buddha-dhatu (Buddha Element, Buddha Principle, Buddha Nature) has been uncovered, seen and realised.

Chapter Three: Dharma and the Nature of Buddha
When a person becomes a fully Awakened Buddha, that person becomes a vessel for the Cosmic Law of all universes. That sustaining, patterning and all-intelligent, spiritual Law of Reality is called Dharma or Dharmata (the essential nature of Dharma), but can also be called simply Buddha, or the Awakened Mind (bodhi-citta). This is the mysterious source of all that is - both the visible and the invisible.
Unlike all worldly things, Dharma is not made or constructed. It has not been constructed or assembled from different constituent elements - not fabricated or generated by any number of causes. It was always there, here and everywhere and always will be. It cannot be seen with the physical eye, yet it does exist and is in fact the sole highest Truth. To try to describe it is to enter into the world of paradox and apparent contradiction. This is because Dharma/ Dharmata is everything we know - and much more that we don't. It cannot be captured within our limited concepts. It goes beyond all human reasoning, time modalities and sensual experience. In his final teachings before his physical death, in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha told of how Dharma is correctly conceived of by a trainee Buddha (a "Bodhisattva"). He said: 'The Dharma which the Buddhas have taught is most excellent and superlative ...This authentic Dharma alone has no time or season. If it is only seen with the Dharma-eye and not with the physical eye, no simile can serve as an analogy for it. It is unborn, unrisen, unabiding, not perishing, without beginning, without end, unconditioned [asamskrta] and immeasurable. It provides a dwelling for those who are homeless, a refuge for those without a refuge, light for those without light ... it is unimpeded fragrance for places without fragrance, it displays what cannot be seen, it is unwavering/ imperturbable, it does not change ... it is tranquillity, the pinnacle of all dharmas. It can utterly eradicate all the kleshas [mental and moral afflictions]; it is totally pure; it is devoid of perceptual attributes [animitta], and it is liberated from perceptual attributes. It is the ultimate dwelling-place of countless beings, it extinguishes all the fires of samsara. It is the abode where the Buddhas disport themselves. It is eternal and unchanging [aviparinama].' (Translation by Stephen Hodge).
This transcendent, mysterious Dharma-Realm is a kind of special, ultimate and immortal Body or Being (called the 'Dharma Body' or Absolute Body) which a person enters into or acquires on reaching Awakening (bodhi). This is the true Nature of Buddha, and is spoken of by the Buddha in the Samadhiraja Sutra: 'Inconceivable, surpassing the sphere of thought, not oscillating between bliss and suffering, surpassing illusory differentiation, placeless, surpassing the voice of those aspiring to the Knowledge of the Buddha, essential, surpassing passion; indivisible, surpassing hatred; steadfast, surpassing infatuation; explained by the indication of emptiness, unborn, surpassing birth, eternal from the standpoint of common experience, undifferentiated in the aspect of Nirvana ... cool, unscorched, placeless, unthinkable, blameless, infinite in terms of colours, born of the application of the great supernatural faculty - thus is the Body of the Tathagata to be called.' (Taken from Philosophy in the Samadhiraja Sutra by Konstanty Regamey, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1990, pp. 87-89). The Buddha then says that this vast, unlocalised Buddhic Body (which we should understand to be a unified totality of Body-and-Mind) projects innumerable Buddha-realms or Buddha-spheres, but that beings simply cannot grasp this inconceivable Body of the Buddha: 'Thousands of millions of spheres are magically created by me, and they serve beings. Even there my Body cannot be grasped. Markless, signless, as is the sky -thus is defined my Body, which is ineffable and hard to understand. The Great Hero [i.e. Buddha] is identical with the Absolute Body. Born of Dharma is his body; the Victorious One [i.e. Buddha] cannot be conceived in the aspect of the Material Body.' (ibid, p. 93).
This God-like vastness of Body and creative Mind, which surpasses the physical form of the Buddha that was visible while he was on earth 2,500 years ago in India, is active in redemptive work in all places and all times. It eternally and infinitely saves beings from the suffering of spiritually defiled life. The Buddha says: 'Undefiled is my mind, for I save beings during inconceivable millions of aeons.
And therefore my Body cannot be perceived ... Just as Space is immeasurable and cannot be measured by anyone, so is the Buddha, exactly like Space.'(ibid). It is clear from this that in his essence, the Buddha is open, spacious, invisible and ungraspable. He is beyond all limitation. Whatever categories we try to apply to him, he both fits and does not entirely fit them. He is the ineffable Beyond. Let us listen to the Buddha's own paradox-filled characterisation of what BUDDHA or TATHAGATA ("He who has come from Thatness" - Ultimate Reality) bafflingly is. These words of the Buddha's come from the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (based on Stephen Hodge's translation) and express the two aspects of the Buddha: the phenomenal (the historical person, Siddhartha Gautama, who could be seen and touched in the India of 2,500 years ago), and the supra-phenomenal or Absolute, which is not confined to a physical body: "The Tathagata is not human: because the Tathagata has abandoned human existence for a long time over countless kalpas [aeons], he is not human. He is not human: because he was born in the city of Kapilavastu, he is not human ... He is also not a sentient being: because he has abandoned the nature of a sentient being for a long time, the Tathagata is not a sentient being. He is also not a sentient being: because he has spoken with the attributes of sentient beings on some occasions, the Tathagata is not a sentient being.
"The Tathagata is not a phenomenon: because the various phenomena each have distinct and different attributes, while the Tathagata is not thus but has only one attribute. He is not a phenomenon: because the Tathagata is the Dharmadhatu [the all-encompassing realm of Truth itself], he is not a phenomenon ..."The Tathagata is not an attribute: because he has long since been devoid of attributes, he is not an attribute. He is not an attribute: because he fully comprehends all phenomena, he is not an attribute. "The Tathagata is not a mind: because he has the attribute of space, he is not a mind. He is not a mind: because he is endowed with the mental qualities of the Ten Powers and the knowledge of the minds of other beings, he is not a mind.
"The Tathagata is not compounded: because he is Eternal, Blissful, the self, and utterly Pure, he is not compounded. He is not compounded: because [in his physical manifestation] he comes, goes, sits and lies down and also displays Nirvana, he is not compounded ..."The Tathagata has four deportments [as a physical being], so he is not eternal. An eternally abiding thing has no location or direction, just as is space. The Tathagata emerged in India and dwelt in Shravasti or Rajagraha, so he is not eternal. For these reasons, the Tathagata is not eternal. "Yet he is also not eternal. Why not? Because he has severed arising forever. Phenomena endowed with arising are not eternal, whereas phenomena devoid of arising are eternal. The Tathagata is devoid of arising, so he is eternal. Phenomena which are eternal are devoid of intrinsic nature [svabhava], whereas phenomena endowed with intrinsic nature are not eternal. The Tathagata is devoid of arising and lineage. Because he is devoid of arising and lineage, he is eternal. "Phenomena associated with eternity pervade all places, just as there is no place where there is any space. The Tathagata also is thus and pervades all places, therefore he is eternal. "Phenomena which are not eternal are said to exist here and not exist there, but the Tathagata is not like that, for it is not possible to say that he exists [ = is present] in one place and does not exist [ = is not present] in another. Therefore he is eternal. "Phenomena which are associated with impermanence exist on some occasions and do not exist on other occasions, but the Tathagata is not thus - existing at some times and not existing at other times - : hence he is eternal ..."Phenomena which permanently abide are disassociated from the three times [i.e. past, present and future]. The Tathagata is also thus, disassociated from the three times, and thus is eternal ..."The Tathagata is not fixed. Why? Because the Tathagata manifests himself entering into Parinirvana between the two sala trees here at Kushinagara. Therefore he is not fixed. Again, he is not fixed. Why not? Because he is Eternal, Blissful, the self, and utterly Pure." (Dharmakshema)
We see that the Buddha is limitless, timeless, and omnipresent. These are pre-eminently attributes of God. He is also that which was never created or assembled and which will never die - another aspect of the Divine. He is true Selfhood, in a state of immortal purity and bliss. Again, we are essentially speaking of divine Perfection here. Buddha is the Mystery of mysteries, as the Avatamsaka Sutra indicates: "Buddha is not finite or infinite: the great sage has transcended finitude and infinity. Like the sun coursing through the sky, giving light every day, so does the sagacious guide appear, independent of past, present, and future ... As the wind blows swiftly through the sky, not sticking to anything, in the same way does the nature of Buddha operate in the world. ... Unquantifiable, the Victor [Buddha] cannot be known by any scales; endowed with unobstructed knowledge, Buddha transcends the path of words. Radiant as the full moon, steady, adorned with a multitude of qualities, He passes infinite eons creating transformations. Thinking of the Buddha in every way with perfect concentration, even after untold billions of eons, Buddha would still be inconceivable." (The Flower Ornament Scripture: A Translation of the Avatamsaka Sutra, tr. by Thomas Cleary, Shambhala, Boston and London 1993, pp. 1,153 - 1,155).
Another attribute of the Divine which emerges from this is that Buddha transcends time, as already mentioned. As a physically projected being, he has his feet within the temporal realm, it is true, but in his divine hypostasis he towers beyond Time in its threefold modality. Yet though timeless, he is not a non-entity. He is possessed of a mass of virtues, beyond reckoning. And chief amongst these is Loving-kindness - as we shall see in our next chapter.

Chapter Four: Buddha as Love
Perhaps the single characteristic which many people associate with "God" is Love. This quality is pre-eminent in Buddha. It is called "maitri", which can be translated as "friendliness", "benevolence", "kindliness", "loving-kindness", or simply "love". The Mahaparinirvana Sutra contains a veritable paean to Loving-kindness in the following words addressed by the Buddha to one of his disciples. When the Buddha refers to himself, he normally uses the term, "Tathagata", which means the One who has gone to, and come from, the Absolute ("Tathata"). He states: "Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness acts as the parent of all beings. The parent is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness is what exists in the inconceivable world of all Buddhas. What exists in the inconceivable world of all Buddhas is at once Loving-kindness. Know that Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness is the Buddha-dhatu [Buddha Principle, Buddha Core, and Buddha Essence] of all beings. This Buddha-dhatu has long been overshadowed by defilements. That is why all beings are unable to see it. The Buddha-dhatu is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Tathagata ... O noble son! Loving-kindness is the Eternal. The Eternal is Dharma. Dharma is the Sangha [all the Awakened Beings in their entirety]. The Sangha is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness is Bliss. Bliss is Dharma. Dharma is the Sangha. The Sangha is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness is the Pure. The Pure is Dharma. Dharma is the Sangha. The Sangha is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Tathagata. O noble son! Loving-kindness is the Self (atman). The Self is Dharma ... O noble son! Loving-kindness is the Immortal (amrta). The Immortal is Loving-kindness. Loving-kindness is the Buddha-dhatu. The Buddha-dhatu is Dharma ... O noble son! Loving-kindness is the limitless world of the Bhagavat [Blessed One]. The limitless world is Loving-kindness. Know that Loving-kindness is the Tathagata." (The Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, op. cit., Vol. 5 (2000), pp. 17-18).

Here, everything ultimately resolves itself into one thing - Love. And interestingly, we learn from this passage that the quintessential, beneficent nature of the Buddha is in all beings, but covered up by their vices (chiefly, hatred, selfish desire, spiritual ignorance, pride and jealousy). Once those contaminants of our innermost nature are removed, we allow the fount of pure Love to spring forth from within us. This loving, immortal Buddha Principle (Buddha-dhatu) is referred to in this scripture and others as the True Self - as opposed to the deceptive, grasping, clinging, transitory, physically-based puny ego which dominates all of our unawakened lives. The Buddha is the embodiment of that True Self (the atman, as it is called in Sanskrit), and that True Self of Loving-kindness can be attained by all sentient beings. Perhaps, at this juncture, we should say a few words about the Buddha-Self, since many people are under the mistaken impression that Mahayana Buddhism absolutely denies the existence of the eternal Self or Soul ((which is Buddhically One in its nature, not multifarious and diverse). In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha states: "... all phenomena are not non-Self. The Self is real, the Self is eternal, the Self is virtue, the Self is everlasting, the Self is immovable, and the Self is peace." This Self is what the Buddha truly is. But he has two other forms of manifested body-and-mind, which are less mysterious and more visible than his "Dharma-Being" (dharma-kaya): they are the "Enjoyment Body" (sambhoga-kaya), which is the radiant, heavenly form of the Buddha perceived by high-level beings, and the "Transformation Body" (nirmana-kaya), the physical body which the Buddha assumes here on earth. In his manifestation as Buddha in the world, as well as Buddha in the various Buddha-Paradises which he develops, the Buddha is very much a person. In fact, the Buddha is frequently called (and refers to himself as) the mahapurisha. This means, "Great Man" or "Great Person" - but crucially the term would have had connotations to Buddha's Indian Brahmanic listeners of the day of "God" (just as the term, "Bhagavat", was usually applied to a perceived Divine incarnation by the Brahmanic religionists of that time). The Brahmanic religion understood purusha to mean (and here I quote from Sri Swami Sivananda): "the Supreme Being; a being that lies in the city (of the heart of all beings). The term is applied to the Lord. The description applies to the Self which abides in the heart of all things." (Yoga Vedanta Dictionary, by Sri Swami Sivananda, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1973, p. 135). Interestingly, the Buddhas are specifically styled the "Hearts of All Beings" in the Lalitavistara Sutra (The Lalitavistara Sutra: The Voice of the Buddha, tr. by Gwendolyn Bays, Dharma Publishing, Berkely, USA, 1983, p. 527). We should become sensitive to such important verbal resonances.

But is the Buddha actually worshipped like a God? After all, as we saw from our various dictionary definitions, worship is an element invariably associated with God. Let us see what the sutras reveal on this point.

[Continued in "Buddha and God (2)"]

© Dr Tony Page 2004

Comments

  • edited January 2006
    Nirvana Sutra

    Appreciation of the "Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra"

    "Buddha and God" (2)

    Chapter Five: Buddha as Worthy of Worship
    In all the great world religions, God is regarded as the Supreme Being, who is worthy of veneration and worship. It is similar with Buddha.

    Firstly, we should note that the term customarily used by many of his disciples in the scriptures when addressing the Buddha is "Bhagavat" - which means "The Blessed One" or Lord. It would have been linked with the idea of the Divine ("Ishvara") by the Indians of his time. This alone gives us an indication of the highest regard in which he was held. In fact, when the Buddha was born on earth, the "gods" (devas) all bowed down before this "god of gods", as the Buddha himself relates in the Lalitavistara Sutra (pp. 174-175):

    "When I was born, the three thousand worlds were shaken: Shakra and Brahma [great gods], the asuras [Titans], the mahoragas [great snake-like beings], Chandra [the moon] and Surya [the sun], as well as Vaisravana and Kumara, all bowed their heads at my feet and did homage to me. What god is so distinguished by his superiority over me ...? I am the god above the gods, superior to all the gods; no god is like me - how could there be a higher?"

    When the infant Buddha was taken to the temple of the gods, a miraculous event occurred: all the statues of the gods rose from their plinths, and bowed down before baby Buddha. The Lalitavistara Sutra (pp. 175-176) memorably relates this wonder:

    "As soon as the Bodhisattva set his right foot in the temple, the statues of the gods, including Shiva, Skanda, Narayana, Kubera, Chandra, Surya, Vaisravana, Shakra, Brahma, the Guardians of the World, and others, rose from their places and bowed at the feet of the Bodhisattva (i.e. the Buddha-to-be)."




    When we turn to other sutras too, we find numerous instances of worship of Buddha. In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, for example, human devotees of the Lord bow down before him when they are in his presence and display the greatest veneration. The following is just one example out of many from that scripture, and tells of how a host of great Bodhisattvas (aspirant Buddhas) behaved when they approached Lord Buddha himself:

    "They sped to where the Buddha was, walked around him 100,000 times, folded their hands, [and] paid homage ..." (The MPNS, Vol. 1, p. 10).

    Not only humans worship the Buddha, but gods and animals too, as the same Mahaparinirvana Sutra again makes clear. We read of the many offerings which the heavenly beings (the "gods") make to Buddha as the latter prepares to leave his physical body:

    "All the devas [gods] up to the highest heaven were gathered there [before Buddha]. At that time, Great Brahma [a major god] and other devas put forth light which shone over the four lands. To the men and devas of the world of desire, the lights of the sun and moon were all hidden. They had bejewelled hanging-ensigns, banners and parasols of coloured silk [as offerings to Buddha] ... They came to where the Buddha was, touched his feet with their heads, and said to him: 'O Bhagavat, O Tathagata! Have pity and accept our last offerings." (ibid, p. 19).

    [To Be Continued ...]
  • edited January 2006
    Thanks for the amusement value :grin:. This has to rank as one of the most poorly researched and plain silly views of the Mahayana I've ever come across. I know that some do try any and all means to introduce aspects to the Dharma that simply aren't there, but this is stretching even that. I thought Tony'd given up on this nonsense after the abysmal reception he used to get at SOAS in London from those scholars who actually do understand what Buddhism teaches and his being asked to leave the old Buddha's Village Forum. In the end the only people he could get to work with him were foreign scholars who were unaware of his agenda, usually Japanese, who found out a little too late to dissasociate themselves. He's persistent, I'll grant him that.
  • edited January 2006
    I think after Zen's post it will not be continued as prophesied...
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Craig,
    I love you.

    Esau,
    I find when I am in great physical or emotional pain, I revert to a child who wants a parental God to make things better. When I get stronger, I realize my foolishness. One of the challenging things about Buddhism is that it is about growing up and casting off dependence on anything other than ourselves. It's truly a challenge. We all want, at different points in our life, to have someone take care of us. But we want to develop spiritual maturity as well. The two things seem, to me, to be mutually exclusive.
    I think, in Buddhism, it's not helpful to see God in this light, or any light. We can't help but place a mask over God's face, thus obstructing God from view/understanding even further. In the end, our understanding is obscured by the distraction and disempowerment of dependence on this concept of God. I don't think Buddhism is atheistic. I think it's smart enough not to be distracted by what can only be a misconstrued idea of God.

    With love and respect,
    Brigid.
  • edited January 2006
    Brigid wrote:
    Craig,
    I love you.

    Esau,
    I find when I am in great physical or emotional pain, I revert to a child who wants a parental God to make things better. When I get stronger, I realize my foolishness. One of the challenging things about Buddhism is that it is about growing up and casting off dependence on anything other than ourselves. It's truly a challenge. We all want, at different points in our life, to have someone take care of us. But we want to develop spiritual maturity as well. The two things seem, to me, to be mutually exclusive.
    I think, in Buddhism, it's not helpful to see God in this light, or any light. We can't help but place a mask over God's face, thus obstructing God from view/understanding even further. In the end, our understanding is obscured by the distraction and disempowerment of dependence on this concept of God. I don't think Buddhism is atheistic. I think it's smart enough not to be distracted by what can only be a misconstrued idea of God.

    With love and respect,
    Brigid.
    I love you too in a strictly platonic manner lol
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Craig wrote:
    I love you too in a strictly platonic manner lol

    LOL!!

    But of course! That's my favorite way.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    We all know the sort of love that Plato liked!
  • edited January 2006
    We all know the sort of love that Plato liked!
    wink wink
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited January 2006
    nudge, nudge.
    Say no more, say no more.
    Please! LOL!!!
  • edited January 2006
    Brigid wrote:
    nudge, nudge.
    Say no more, say no more.
    Please! LOL!!!
    LOL
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    It was, of course, Plato who said: "Love is the desire and pursuit of completeness" (Symposium)
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited January 2006
    I didn't read Plato, only Aristotle.
    Was Plato referring to romantic love or spiritual love?

    And if you answer "yes" I'll understand. I just figured out the story about The Cucumber Sage.
  • edited January 2006
    LOL!
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