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Okay, self and emptiness again
ThailandTom
Veteran
Okay so I understand that everything is interconnected and that there is no slf dependent from the world around us. We do now own anything, even our family or children if we have them, so how can you realize this fully. I do not have a firm understanding or realization on this.
If I were speaking with a friend about this and he or she picked up her super cool new ifone and said, 'this is mine, I bought it, isn't that obvious,' how would you answer that from a buddhist perspective?
If I were speaking with a friend about this and he or she picked up her super cool new ifone and said, 'this is mine, I bought it, isn't that obvious,' how would you answer that from a buddhist perspective?
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Vipassana is the key because it's something not in our normal experience. We have to see that even the smallest moment is here and then gone, that it has causes/conditions which lead to it (so is not self), and that to grasp therefore leads to pain. There are deeper understandings found through persistent insight meditation than any "thinking" will lead to.
The understanding born of thought and the understanding born of direct experience together form the basis for insight, for the arising of wisdom, which changes the way in which the mind perceives existence. And so I guess my point is that we won't ever understand emptiness this way (debates on a forum or thinking), but only through dedicated effort to insight meditation, watching phenomena as they arise and pass, will it become clear.
(Moving this to Advanced by the way, emptiness is a difficult subject and this thread will likely get complicated responses...)
It's odd at first to try and step back and watch, and to not follow thoughts that come up (which lead you to further thoughts), but when you get used to it it's quite easy. You have to work at it though. Understand how to meditate and actually do it. That's the hard part. That, and wanting to meditate; a lot of people simply don't want to do it, and so they don't, and then they wonder why they get stuck on some things.
You can't.
So it's apple's iphone, not yours.
See: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Anattalakkhana/anattalakkhana.html
Then you power off the computer. Where did those programs you were interacting with go? It's not enough to say they reside on the computer's hard drive, because they're something different and not remotely useful. Only with the right conditions do the programs "arise" like mind-consciousness, but they are completely inseparable from the form (computer). When you make changes, it saves those to the hard drive, and when the computer "wakes up" it converts them back into an interactive experience (mind) that changes moment-to-moment depending on circumstances and interaction.
This is like the body-brain-mind connection, where the mind is turned on by the body and uses what is stored in the brain such as memories. The body and brain are both form, but together (and with the sense doors such as eyes, ears, etc.) they bring forth the "mind" as the interactive experience of life! Mind and consciousness are not separate things floating around that exist independent of form. The mind of a duck is different than the mind of a human because the form, the brain-body, is different.
Or something. We have to understand that form and mind are not the same, but they can not be separated either. Form conditions mind, is required for consciousness and other mental factors, but that consciousness is not separate from form either. It takes a bit of effort to really grasp, and this analogy doesn't do it much justice...
Yes, you are right, it is obvious. I agree with your friend.
"If it gets stolen tomorrow, is it still hers? If a truck drives over it tomorrow, is it still a iPhone?"
At the present moment it is her iphone, and she is right in saying it is.
"If it were yours, you can will the iphone into green. Or pink."
Even if I could it would still be empty, and it would still be correct to say it is mine, with or without color change on demand.
If you think you can't meditate you are expecting too much probably. Take it easy on yourself.
With metta,
Sabre
The concept of property, as @elenagreene also mentioned, is a quite desirable mental formation making sure that we can live in functioning societies.
Imagine that property did not exist, hence there was no obligation to respect the valuables of others - be they food, clothes or gold. Life would be a war where everyone would live in fear of being preyed on by the next fellow.
I completely agree that no thing has value in itself and can be said to be itself, but we still have to make up some kind of philosophy which can support some kind of regulation of life, as to make sure we're all safe.
The realizations of the Buddha must not become the subvention of life and society for everyone else.
So in relation to what @Cinorjer said about being born with the iPhone, it's obvious that you can't be born with an item in your hand - but it's also quite evident that the whole concept of property is in fact inborn. That way 'round a human is born with any possessions he or she acquires throughout life, which aren't handed over or abandoned.
How we relate to our feeling of property is a whole other discussion. Some people get angry as hell and rant and rave when their bike is stolen, some just buy a new bike with a better lock
Within that iPhone there are the different people that made its composite parts in the various factories. Those people, in order to live, need to eat, and so the restaurants, grocery markets are within that iPhone. Those foods came from various farms-- those plants and animals and the farmers are also within that iPhone. Those plants depend heavily on the sun-- so the sun is within that iPhone too. There are other people and things within that iPhone: the truck driver who delivered the composite parts from one factory to another. The people who designed it-- and the people who came before them, who designed earlier prototypes of mobile phones and other computers-- their work is built on those earlier engineers and technicians, so they are in that iPhone. Even the old ENIAC computer built in the 1940s is in that iPhone!
We could go on and on and radiate out in thousands of ways and still not ehaust all the possibilities. To remove even one tiny element, even one hydrogen atom, and the whole universe would cease to exist.
We superimpose dotted lines in our minds over the world we experience to say "this is an iPhone" and "that is not an iPhone" or "this is me" or "this is not me"-- but these are conventient fictions. Certainly they are helpful, and we need to make those distinctions just to get through an ordinary day. The problem is when we mistake those dotted lines for reality-- and we see everything as separate. But this is not the ultimate perspective. Oddly enough, the only way attachment can begin is by perceiving ourselves as separate to begin with. This is craving, which then leads to dukkha.
Think of the air that you are breathing right now. Can you really delineate precisely what is "me" and "not-me"? One way that you may identify "me" is by your body. But is it really that simple? Think of the air you inhale-- this is going into your lungs, becoming a part of your bloodstream. You can't even separate yourself from the air you breathe (you could, but you'd also be dead!).
There is a facinating book I read recently by Bodhipaksa, called Living as a River which goes into this in far more detail, using the "Six Element Meditation Practice." I highly recommend this book. There is an interview with the author here:
AUDIO FILE: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/audio/Episode191_Living_as_a_River.mp3
TRANSCRIPT: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/10/bg-191-living-as-a-river/
Behind that is the space of awareness. Try the surangama sutra.
From this perspective the skandas are relative truth and are actually ultimately a confused presentation of reality. Their purpose is to overcome previous wrong thinking. But the skandas themselves are only a view.