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BIG TOPIC :P :Do you believe in the existence of a soul within a human being?
After death, who is being reincarnated? Who gets enlightened? And after enlightenment, is our personality being annihilated? What's your Buddhist beliefs on that issue?
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As to the question, we can't know the answer until we discern what there is right here and right now. Until we know what we are right now, then we don't even know what we're talking about as far as the past or the future.
No, Buddhists do not believe in an inherent transmigrating soul.
At All, period.
Post questions:
Look up the difference between reincarnation and rebirth, and let us know which one you actually mean....
An enlightened being gets enlightened. Until then, nobody gets enlightened...
What personality?
is yours unchanging?
have you always had precisely the same, unchanging, inalterable, permanent personality you have had, from day one?
If something is transitory and impermanent what's the big deal in it being annihilated? It's annihilated periodically, so no big deal there....
Buddhists don't 'believe'.
They either accept, or don't know.
A Buddhist is not required to believe anything, but we are encouraged to find out for ourselves whether what the Buddha taught sits well with us or not.
And yes, sorry.
This topic is, I'm afraid, not 'Big'.....
But in any case, I hope this all helps.
And Federica to answer your question about the personality, I think from my experience, that yes it has changed over the years and is still changing, but for me there is a seed that defines my unique frequency that resonates with the Universal Mind. Maybe this is not so Buddhist, I don’t know but it is to what I have concluded from my own search…
Love, Peace, Self Realiztion to All of You
There is nothing anywhere that is impermanent or transitory. Everything is temporary and ephemeral.
We do not recognise or acknowledge this 'seed', as even that had a beginning and a middle and will have an end.
Could you elaborate on what you determine is this "Universal Mind"?
To a Buddhist, this is mere wishful thinking, and a fancy people have to assign everything to an origin or source, which in actual fact, cannot be pondered on, because it is unfathomable, and as such, not conducive to practice.
The reason that it is an improper question is that rebirth is taught as the continuation of a process, and not as the passing on of any sort of entity. For a more complete exposition of the subject see Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Paticcasamuppada. There is awakening, no awakener. Habits, traits, can remain.
The illusion of self will be eradicated.
If on the other hand we say, "Buddha said...", or "Buddha believed", or "Buddha taught", or "It seems a majority of Buddhists believe that..." -- then we are on more accurate ground.
And yes, personality changes, personal growth happens, but that doesn't mean we become a completely different person. There is a core that remains.
This may seem like the same-old same-old discussion, but it's been presented a little differently, and raises an interesting new point, viewing the same-old from a slightly different angle. Let's allow the new members to enjoy (as well as a few of the longer-standing members) contributing, rather than making them look up old threads every time they post a re-run thread.
We recently had a thread presenting a scientific article explaining that consciousness was a field, like the electromagnetic field, that is "the fabric of the universe", and that what appears to be individual consciousness is only the brain acting as radio receiver for the consciousness waves in the atmosphere. This universe-consciousness could be what is meant by the Universal Mind.
Shall we speculate?
And for how long?
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/10588/rebirth-separation-of-body-mind#Item_18
And I must sincerely say that, unless there's something I missed, I hope this current thread doesn't go on much longer. There have been so many threads like this that, to me at least, it's really getting old.
we have hundreds of long abandoned threads confirming this.
it is a fact that Buddhists do not ascribe to a Universal Mind, and a permanent unchanging original 'seed'.
if we're going to discuss Buddhism, let us discuss Buddhism. especially in the Advanced ideas Forum.
Not speculative imaginings, which actually lead us nowhere.
Edit: Quite so SD.
Buddhists have always held that mind/consciousness is independent of the physical body, that it's not just a function of the brain, as reductionist science would have it. (Or used to have it, before quantum physics.) So in that respect, science is affirming Buddhism, though it's going a bit further. This is interesting.
And we don't know that this will go on for pages. I'm interested in hearing other members' ideas about the "what gets enlightened" question, which is a good one. We have quite a few new members who haven't had an opp'ty to participate in a discussion like this.
Play out'? Until when?
I think the questions have largely been adequately addressed.
We can't combine threads (thank goodness!) - and what's more, the synopsis from the other thread is speculation on the part of someone who may be eminently famous, but does not represent or speak for all Buddhists.
And I have no objection to topics overlapping.
My objection is to interminable topics on imponderable questions.
But:
I will take my leave.
but if - as I suspect - this thread evolves into pretty much more of the same, don't blame me if I say 'I told you so'.
Knock yourselves out.
New angle: "what gets enlightened?" (from the OP) We're told that our practice is cumulative over lifetimes, each lifetime that we practice as Buddhists, we get closer to Enlightenment. How does that work? Does that experience get imprinted on the subtle consciousness that carries over? Xabir said that habits, traits remain, to get carried over. How? I'd like to see his answer. My observation is that xabir has a strong background in the teachings of his school, we might learn something. This may not be speculative, it may be covered in teachings from one or another Buddhist tradition. Let's wait and see. (Please?)
(Besides, like I said before, everyone's getting along. No one is fighting about rebirth. So far, this is a DD-Free Zone. This is so refreshing and enjoyable. I'm counting our blessings.)
''Knock yourselves out.
:hair:
Membership in the forum is ever-changing, and therefore, so will be the contributions. If all we wanted to do was simply read about a topic, we could go to one of the more static Buddhists and read text. So I appreciate that we are being allowed to discuss and expand.
(GREAT TOPIC, gang! :thumbsup: )
Death and Rebirth"
But although on the gross levels of mind, with this body, there is a lot of this mutual influence, the mind is not just the gross level. The mind has many different levels. By gross mind, I am referring to the five sense consciousnesses and our gross mental consciousness that thinks and develops conceptions and things like that. Now, what is happening at the time of death, is that these gross levels of consciousness
are losing their power, because the body that is their base, is also losing its power. It can't sustain these gross levels of consciousnesses, so they kind of dissolve into a more subtle form of consciousness. And that subtle consciousness dissolves yet into the subtlest, or what we call the extremely subtle consciousness.
So, while somebody is dying, the mind is going from being gross, where all the senses are intact, to being subtle, when they’ve lost control of the senses. You can see this when somebody is dying. They are separating from the physical world. They can't see and hear and so on. Then, the subtle mind dissolves into an extremely subtle mind that by nature, is non-conceptual. And it is this extremely subtle mind that goes from one life to the next life. Now, this extremely subtle mind that goes from life to life is not a soul. It is not a concrete personality. It is not something you can draw a line around and say: “This is it! This is me!” Why not? Because this extremely subtle mind is changing moment by moment by moment. You can't pin it down and tack it and say: “This is it! This is me!”
It's changing, changing, changing. So, what happens during the death process is, the mind goes from gross mind to subtle to subtlest mind – changing, changing, changing … at each moment. This subtlest consciousness leaves one body, goes into the intermediate stage, and then goes into the next body. In the next body, let’s say as a human being, when the consciousness enters into the union of the sperm and egg, then the gross consciousnesses slowly again start to develop.
So when the consciousness first enters the sperm and egg, you first have some mental consciousness and the tactile consciousness. You obviously don't yet have eye consciousness because the embryo doesn't have eyes. But as the organs develop inside the womb, and the baby gets the eye organ, the ear organ, the nose organ, and so forth, then the respective gross consciousnesses also come into existence.
This is just a simple outline of rebirth. So, we have the body and the mind. When they are together, we call it alive. When we die, the body has its continuity, the mindstream has its continuity. The body becomes chocolate cake for the worms and the mind goes on into the next life.
Let's look at this life. We have this moment of consciousness. Whatever moment of consciousness is happening right now, it had a cause, didn't it? Everything had a cause. This moment of body had a cause – the previous moment of body – didn't it? Our body now depended on our body last year, our body when we were two years old, our body in the sperm and egg as the fertilized egg, and a physical continuity that went back to before this body, didn't it? There was the continuity of this body before this body actually existed, because the sperm and egg of our parents were there. And that had a physical continuity – all the nitrogen and oxygen and carbon and things that went into the sperm and egg. So there is always a physical cause going back, back, back, back."
Enlightenment
Liberation means you’ve freed your own mindstream from the ignorance and the karma.
Enlightenment means that you’ve also generated the altruistic intention. You have not only freed your mindstream from the ignorance and the karma, but you have also freed it from a very subtle kind of stain left after the ignorance and the karma have been removed.
We have what's called two levels of obscuration:
i) the afflicted* obscurations, which is the ignorance and the karma, the afflictions# and the karma; and
ii) the subtle obscurations or cognitive obscurations@.
The afflicted* obscurations are what keep us bound in cyclic existence. When we remove them through practicing ethics, concentration and wisdom, we attain the state of an arhat, or a liberated being. The afflicted* obscurations are like the onions. When you take the onions out of the pot, there is still the smell of the onions. The smell of the onions is like the subtle obscurations on the mindstream. So, with an altruistic intention to benefit all, you want to remove even these subtle obscurations from the mindstream. You still practice the three higher trainings. But in addition, you practice the altruistic intention and all the bodhisattva’s actions. And you meditate on emptiness in a very, very deep way until
you get to the point where you can actually remove even these subtle stains from the mind. It is like getting rid of not only the onions, but also their smell. And at that point, you attain full enlightenment or Buddhahood.
Somebody who has generated the altruistic intention to attain Buddhahood is a bodhisattva. There are different levels of bodhisattvas; it's a progressive path. Some bodhisattvas are baby bodhisattvas and they are still bound by their own ignorance. Higher level bodhisattvas are no longer bound by their ignorance. They've been able to attain liberation from cyclic existence.
Taken from
http://www.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/LR_003_BasicTopics_May91.pdf
I'm not aware of a buddhist tradition that uses the word soul. My point was that someone else perhaps in the christian tradition may use the word soul. And if they are talking about a reality they are experiencing then there is no reason not to use that term. If its only in theory then it is not wrong but they should be aware that it is only a theory. Just as if I refer to the string theory I am not wrong but it is only a theory.
Self and consiousness may also point to reality.
From the Dhamapada (and this I couldn't cut and paste
If a man holds himself dear, let him guard himself well. Of the three watches of his time, let him at least watch over one.
Let him find first what is right and then he can teach it to others, avoiding thus useless pain.
If he makes himself as good as he tells others to be, then he in truth can teach others. Difficult indeed is self-control.
Only a man himself can be the master of himself: who else from the outside could be master? When the master and servant are one, then there is true help and self-possession.
....
By oneself the evil is done, and it is oneself who suffers: by oneself the evil is not done, and by one's Self one becomes pure. The pure and the impure come from oneself: no man can purify another.
Let no man endanger his duty, the good of his soul, for the good of another, however great. When he has seen the good of his soul, let him follow it with earnestness."
Translated by Juan Mascaro
It could be translated different words.
Lao Tzu once said: "I wish I could find somebody not caught by words. So that I could have a word with him (or her)."
is not the very subtle mind a fundamental part of our existence and hence can be defined as us just as much as any other quality we have that we could define as us ?
http://kwelos.tripod.com/mahayana.htm
"The human mind is seen as having many levels or aspects. Some of these are gross, temporary and machine-like, but others are more subtle and are capable of absorbing (mixing with) qualia (qualitative experiences). The most subtle mind is the permanent mind which goes on from life to life. Buddhists tend to use the term 'mind' or 'subtle mind' and avoid the use of the word 'soul' (See Mind and Soul). The subtle mind is changeable. It readily absorbs imprints of qualia, whether negative such as anger, intolerance, greed, jealously; or positive such as love, compassion and the intuitive realisation of 'emptiness'.
In most people who have not trained in spiritual practices the subtle mind is uncontrolled and unstable, which is unfortunate because after death this mind will be drawn to environments which correspond with its imprints. The mind need not even necessarily be reborn as a human, if the habitual tendencies are too negative then it could find itself in the body of an animal, or in some very unpleasant disembodied states.
Most sentient beings exist in states of great ignorance, suffering, and lack of freedom. In Mahayana philosophy it is regarded as extremely fortunate to be born as a human in a free and peaceful country with sufficient time and resources to be able to pursue the spiritual path of one's choice. Throughout history very few sentient beings (and very few humans) have enjoyed such freedoms. The Mahayanists regard it as a duty to make the best use of such environments while they last."
There is no element of judgmentalism in what happens after death. The mind determines its own future. 'Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny.'
Consequently, one of the practices of the Mahayanist attempting to avoid uncontrolled rebirth is to calm the mind and familiarise it with positive qualia, while purifying it of negative qualia. (Or in the words of the old song 'You got to accentuate the positive, and eliminate the negative') This is usually done by meditation.
Other practices which are used to work on the mind are the day-to-day actions arising out of virtuous mental states such as compassion and generosity, prayers to enlightened beings, and contemplation of symbolically charged iconic representations of enlightened beings.
You've been great with the quotes and text, too. Was that you who came up with the HHDL quote (somewhere) about the very subtle mind being the self? Wow--that's a blockbuster, in terms of the history of the debate on this site! ^_^
(I'm so glad this thread wasn't closed! This is great stuff!)
Zid, you're a gold mine. Do you agree with this definition of "self" that HHDL gives? (It wasn't me who came up with the quote, I just grabbed it and spread it around different threads.)
continuation happens because of 'avijja paccaya sankhara'
sankhara has three types, namely
vacci sankhara (vitakka, vicara, this may be the subtle level of mind that HDDL talked about)
mano sankhara (feeling and perception)
kaya sankhara (breath in and out)
for unenlightened beings, when one gets experience through one's one of the six sense bases these three happens simultaneously
and the vacci sankhara makes one go forward without knowing what is happening to oneself -one involves with thought, word, or deed (so one is go to the next moment because of one's avijja)
for enlightened beings, when there is experience there is no vitakka, viccara so there is not going forward without knowing what is happening to oneself
at the last breath, there is something (avijja) remains with unenlightened beings and make forward the mind to hold another time and space to birth
but
for enlightened being there is no avijja, no clinging, no vitakka viccara to go forward, so it is said 'fire extinguished'
For enlightened beings, no clinging, no vitakka viccara, so no rebirth? Unless they choose to return as a Boddhisattva (I guess that's not Theravadan, though). For unenlightened beings, the vitakka viccara causes the going forward to another birth? (Just making sure I got this right) The very subtle mind. Imprinted with thoughts, habits, experiences and ... karmic imprints?
http://kwelos.tripod.com/mindandsoul.htm
I do agree, with HHDL on this, in fact HHDL's book "Advice on Dying: And Living a Better Life" was the first Buddhist book I read. And he goes through these subtle states of mind in great detail in the book.
@Cloud: nyah! :nyah:
The first six are sense and mental consciousness.
From my link this is about the alaya 8th consciousness which may be the subtle body:
Eighth consciousness: "store-house consciousness" (Tibetan: kun-gzhi rnam-shes; Sanskrit: ālāyavijñāna); " The seed consciousness (bi^ja-vijn~a^na); "the consciousness which is the basis of the other seven.[2] The seven prior consciousnesses are based and founded upon the eighth. It is the aggregate which administers and yields rebirth; this idea may in some respects be compared to the usage of the word "citta" in the agamas; see below. In the early texts the sankhara-khandha plays some of the roles ascribed to the store-house consciousness by later Yogacara thinkers.