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Starting to doubt Buddhism... was that all that Shakyamuni Buddha taught?
The noble 8 fold path doesn't even start until we take on the view of the noble aryas. That is not a commonplace thing. Until then what we imagine the noble 8 fold path to be is it does in fact work as a formula for how an ordinary person whatever their level of realisation should live their lives.
You may also teach the 8 fold path without explicitly teaching the 8 fold path. How to deepen one’s view, how to meditate in order to be able to focus (concentrate) properly and how to take that awareness into the actions of body, speech and mind, and into how we make life choices, how we distinguish what to give up and what to cultivate (mindfulness) and how generosity and discipline, keeping one’s word and practising kshanti (forbearance) increase the energy of the practice mandala making meditation and realisation possible. So all the elements are there even though not fitted into the formula of an eightfold path.
As a relative newbie, my suggestion is you give it all some time. And as Federica said, it's important to live the teachings not just study them.
Consider working with those aspects of Buddhism that resonate with you now. I started out a little less than a year ago because I needed to manage stress better. My goal was to be happier, more peaceful and more loving to those around me and I focused on those concepts that I felt would help me do that: mindfulness and compassion.
If a teaching made me uncomfortable or depressed, I decided not to either accept or reject it. I just tried to keep meditating a little every day and working on incorporating more compassion in how I deal with people. Over time some of the other teachings have become clearer, like "emptiness". There are still things I am unsure of, like karma, but I'm staying practical. My goal is still to be happier, more peaceful and loving. So if a teaching doesn't seem to be helping, I will continue to read and think about it, but I don't worry.
Another thing I noticed as a beginner, that some of the words used in Buddhist teachings can be off-putting. Like "attachment"--what did they mean, I shouldn't be attached to my children? I don't know if my thinking is right on this, but now I interpret it to mean I should love my children, but not be attached in unhealthy ways, like being overprotective or living vicariously through them. "Emptiness" is another word that can sound depressing. I've seen the term "openness" used for that and that helped to trigger a lightbulb moment for me.
Another suggestion is that different teachers and writers on Buddhism present things differently. Sometimes hearing it a different way helps. I happen to enjoy Thich Nhat Hanh's writing and things make more sense to me in his words.
So anyway, you don't have to understand and accept it all to start practicing. Once you do, you can tell if you're heading in the right direction.
Don't be fooled, friend. It will cause you a lot of suffering to oppose the Dhamma. Investigate the four noble truths. They are real, and to be investigated. If you are experiencing this doubt, it is because you do not see. Learn to see, and you will be rid of doubt.
Elena, don't be confused about emptiness. First and foremost, it is not the most important thing for a beginner to learn, for it might confuse you, and cause you to waste your time. Instead, you should apply your mind to understanding the four noble truths, and dependent origination. These are the teachings that the Buddha taught through out his entire teaching career. When fully understood, they are infallible at causing happiness. If it's any help, when Buddhists talk about emptiness, it just means that everything is non-substantial, there's really nothing to get upset about, nothing to lust for, nothing to worry about, nothing to become slothful over, and nothing to doubt. Everything is just a big puzzle put together out of little empty pieces that really in them selves are made up of further little empty pieces. It's not meant to be complicated. It's meant to be happy. Good luck.
Thanks, Tikal. What you say matches what my recent lightbulb moment on "emptiness". What I was trying to say to the OP is that the word itself can sound rather bleak, but when I thought of it as "openness" (I think I read it in one of Pema Chodron's books) it made it easier for my mind to grasp.
You are right Tikal. I thought of these too. For the beginner, one has to understand the Four Noble truths for they are the first steps to attain Buddhahood. So I will try to make peace with them and try to live them...
I mean looking at the Four Noble truths, is this the only thing that this big religion has to offer? Escaping suffering? Ok life is full of suffering... so what? What about love, and enjoyment and the pleasure of just living, or being glad that you are who you are even though you have flaws.
//"He showed me the brightness of the world."
That's how my teacher, Ajaan Fuang, once characterized his debt to his teacher, Ajaan Lee. His words took me by surprise. I had only recently come to study with him, still fresh from a school where I had learned that serious Buddhists took a negative, pessimistic view of the world. Yet here was a man who had given his life to the practice of the Buddha's teachings, speaking of the world's brightness.
I think the happiness that Buddhism can bring just isn't written about as much.
There are things that we conventionally think of as happiness, like buying a new gadget and playing with all the neat features. What Buddhism can help you with is to be less attached emotionally to the new gadget so that you can enjoy it even more, because you no longer have the fear of losing it, or scratching it, or breaking it.
Another example is being with family and friends. After studying buddhism for some time, one can enjoying being around family and friends even more. You would for instance understand the impermance of your loved ones and cherish them even more. Through buddhism, you may develop empathy and no longer hate certain relatives.
I think buddhism can help you develop a much better attitude that helps you enjoy everything in life a lot more.
The practice of Buddhism, done over some years, actually changes who you are inside. Perhaps you have not practiced long enough, or you are not practicing properly, or you do not have a qualified teacher. Or perhaps you think that Buddhism is an intellectual exercise ... it isn't. It is an experiential exercise.
I mean looking at the Four Noble truths, is this the only thing that this big religion has to offer? Escaping suffering? Ok life is full of suffering... so what? What about love, and enjoyment and the pleasure of just living, or being glad that you are who you are even though you have flaws. I think that it is why there where 3 turnings on the Dharma wheel. People needed more. And ok, do I really want to stop being a human being with its fears, and longings and all that stuff that make me a human being?
All these might sound naive, considering the fact that I've just started exploring Buddhism, but I don't know. If the basis of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths, about suffering, escaping it and such, then I feel that I'm missing the point here when an infinity of Universe lies in front of me, with so much more to be explored and discovered and understood. What makes Buddhism different from nihilism, when we are erasing all that is human within us?
Sorry about my bubbling but I felt the need to share this with you. What do you feel about my reduction of Buddhism to the Four Noble Truths...?
My comment may be long, but hopefully beneficial...
At first glance, the 4 noble Truths seem simple and easy to comprehend, but it is not so. Though maybe simple, they are very profound. With a further investigation into them, we might discover that the 4 Noble truths are encompassing most, if not the whole, of human experience.
1. Lets take a closer look into the first Noble Truth, that is of suffering:
What the Buddha talks about here is the full range of suffering, from the slightest discontent and discomfort all the way to the most gross forms of suffering (harsh injuries, disasters, sever illnesses, death and so on). Now, you ask what about love, enjoyment, pleasures etc. If you examine them closely, you'll discover that each and everyone of them are containing the seeds of its opposite, i.e suffering. Not only that, but each and every pleasure we can think of is mixed with anguish and distress. Love to your mate if full of insecurity, fear to loose, fear of separation. Or when we are enjoying our time in a splendid way, the slightest thought about its near coming end of this good time we have, already blemishes the joy we feel...
Now all that is still not a problem, if we could take them in a sportive attitude. The simple, factual truth is contrary to that: when we enjoy, we hold onto it fast, and when we start to loose it (since everything is impermanent ) we try to grab our pleasure even strongly then before. When finally our experience of joy slipped away, how much sorrow we feel, grieving and longing for more and more. AHA! Joys and pleasures are so short!
On the other hand, when we suffer, when we feel pain, ah, how long it will last more? It seems there is no end to it...
Now, everything you talked about (love, pleasure etc.) containing all of what I described. Are you still think that they are so desirable? Do you have the attitude of calmness, peace and equanimity and playfulness towards the mishaps and miseries of life? If your answer is affirmative, there is no need for the Buddha-Dharma for you, but if this is not the case, well, you might rethink the Buddha-Dharma as means to freedom and unconditional happiness.
2. The Second Noble Truth, that of the cause of suffering, craving, or as the Buddha calls it - Thirst (Pali - Tanha, Sanskrit - Trishna):
What is propelling us in thought, speech and acting? It is the ongoing and never-quenched craving. Once we got something we wanted, we move on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing... Yes, you want the explore and know about the infinite universe that lies in front of you, yes, there is so much to know and understand, but how much more do you really need to know? Or do you want your thirst to continue without ever quenching it?
Now, it is true that this thirst motivates us in many things that are good and beneficial, and if it would be only it, no need for us to be free from this thirst. But again, since our thirst is never satisfied, we want more and more. We never have enough. Not only we want what we've already got, but we also want what he has, what she has, and when we don't get it, how angry we become. This way our thirst is accompanied with envy, anger, hatred and so on.
On the other hand, when our thirst has been satiated, when we content and at ease, what we really need more? Exploring the universe (curiosity), wanting more, wishing for more pleasures, more enjoyments, all these are various forms of subtle and gross cravings and desires, many of them not very beneficial and others very harmful. Contrary to all that, The Buddha-Dharma teaches us the art and skillfulness of good heart, unconditioned contentedness and peace. With contentedness we are happy, goodhearted and generous.
Are you satisfied when you fulfilled your wants and cravings, or are you angry, raged, or full of grief when you don't get what you want? Can you live in peace when others have things that you yourself don't have? Or your heart trembles with envy and greed?
3. The Third Noble Truth, that of the possibility to end all suffering: the Buddha teaches us that if we abandon and let go of our never-ending thirst, we will be free from the yokes of ceaselessly being at thirst.
4. The Fourth Noble Truth, the Noble Eight-Fold Path:
In this Noble Eight-Fold Path the Buddha-teaches us how to transform our minds from minds who are restless, ever occupied in cravings, anger, disappointment, discontent, envy, ignorance and so on, into a mind which sees everything clearly, brightly, broadly and deeply. Mind that is at ease, happiness and ongoing contentment. The Noble Eight-Fold Path teaches us how to live our best as humans (not "erasing all that is human within us" as you've said above), instead of staying mostly in constant anxiety, full of negative emotions and an endless yearning for a better life that is lying somewhere in other places, sometime in the future, outside of us. In difference from that, the Buddha teaches us to find the better not somewhere/sometime else and outside, but within our selves, in the here-and-now, better which will be with us all the time, since it is not conditioned by place, time, or any other circumstances.
The Four Noble Truths are truly simple, yet enormously profound. Not necessarily in the sense of sophistication and complexity, but in the way of how they encompasses the whole of the human experience through and through. They broad and penetrating deeply into the core of our being. Not only the Four Noble Truths encompasses the human experience, but also all other sentient-being lives as well. The Buddha's teachings are many - thousands of Sutras & Sastras, writings and books, different schools, sophisticated and complexed philosophies, metaphysics and so on and on, but all of them without exeption are contained within these 2 simple sentences which the Buddha said in 2 different occasions (free citations from my memory):
'All I teach is suffering and the way to liberation from suffering'
'avoid evil, do good and purify your mind'
So simple are the Buddha's teachings, but how vast and deep they are!
Whether you may continue to tread the Buddha-Dharma or not, may you be happy at all times and everywhere, and may you be the cause of happiness to everyone else at all time and everywhere
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2011
@NOTagangsta: I have asked you respectfully. If you don't start using proper English on this forum, as requested, I WILL begin to amend your posts. The gist will be the same; the English, more conventional. Please: either use proper intelligible English yourself, or prepare to have some of your posts changed. And be respectful with your comments.
Well reading joyfully all of your posts, I would like to thank all of you for your efforts to clear the way for me. I have past my problems and oppositions about the 4 noble truths a long time ago since I've created this thread and would like to share my findings.
Firstly, I realized that the 4 noble truths should be approached scientifically and not emotionally. It is a realization of a disease of the mind. I like the statement 'there is suffering', you acknowledge the fact that there is suffering, not your suffering, but suffering in general. You begin to observe suffering within you and without you. 'The Cause of Suffering is craving', the desire and you observe that phenomenon within you and without you and so on and so forth.
Secondly, for me I realize that Buddhism is a vast territory. You can find marvellous things there in all the three yanas. So, I started my search from that premise.
Comments
lol wut?
You may also teach the 8 fold path without explicitly teaching the 8 fold path. How to deepen one’s view, how to meditate in order to be able to focus (concentrate) properly and how to take that awareness into the actions of body, speech and mind, and into how we make life choices, how we distinguish what to give up and what to cultivate (mindfulness) and how generosity and discipline, keeping one’s word and practising kshanti (forbearance) increase the energy of the practice mandala making meditation and realisation possible. So all the elements are there even though not fitted into the formula of an eightfold path.
Consider working with those aspects of Buddhism that resonate with you now. I started out a little less than a year ago because I needed to manage stress better. My goal was to be happier, more peaceful and more loving to those around me and I focused on those concepts that I felt would help me do that: mindfulness and compassion.
If a teaching made me uncomfortable or depressed, I decided not to either accept or reject it. I just tried to keep meditating a little every day and working on incorporating more compassion in how I deal with people. Over time some of the other teachings have become clearer, like "emptiness". There are still things I am unsure of, like karma, but I'm staying practical. My goal is still to be happier, more peaceful and loving. So if a teaching doesn't seem to be helping, I will continue to read and think about it, but I don't worry.
Another thing I noticed as a beginner, that some of the words used in Buddhist teachings can be off-putting. Like "attachment"--what did they mean, I shouldn't be attached to my children? I don't know if my thinking is right on this, but now I interpret it to mean I should love my children, but not be attached in unhealthy ways, like being overprotective or living vicariously through them. "Emptiness" is another word that can sound depressing. I've seen the term "openness" used for that and that helped to trigger a lightbulb moment for me.
Another suggestion is that different teachers and writers on Buddhism present things differently. Sometimes hearing it a different way helps. I happen to enjoy Thich Nhat Hanh's writing and things make more sense to me in his words.
So anyway, you don't have to understand and accept it all to start practicing. Once you do, you can tell if you're heading in the right direction.
Wishing you the best,
Elena
If it's any help, when Buddhists talk about emptiness, it just means that everything is non-substantial, there's really nothing to get upset about, nothing to lust for, nothing to worry about, nothing to become slothful over, and nothing to doubt. Everything is just a big puzzle put together out of little empty pieces that really in them selves are made up of further little empty pieces. It's not meant to be complicated. It's meant to be happy. Good luck.
That's how my teacher, Ajaan Fuang, once characterized his debt to his teacher, Ajaan Lee. His words took me by surprise. I had only recently come to study with him, still fresh from a school where I had learned that serious Buddhists took a negative, pessimistic view of the world. Yet here was a man who had given his life to the practice of the Buddha's teachings, speaking of the world's brightness.
- Ajahn Geoff//
I think the happiness that Buddhism can bring just isn't written about as much.
There are things that we conventionally think of as happiness, like buying a new gadget and playing with all the neat features. What Buddhism can help you with is to be less attached emotionally to the new gadget so that you can enjoy it even more, because you no longer have the fear of losing it, or scratching it, or breaking it.
Another example is being with family and friends. After studying buddhism for some time, one can enjoying being around family and friends even more. You would for instance understand the impermance of your loved ones and cherish them even more. Through buddhism, you may develop empathy and no longer hate certain relatives.
I think buddhism can help you develop a much better attitude that helps you enjoy everything in life a lot more.
The practice of Buddhism, done over some years, actually changes who you are inside. Perhaps you have not practiced long enough, or you are not practicing properly, or you do not have a qualified teacher. Or perhaps you think that Buddhism is an intellectual exercise ... it isn't. It is an experiential exercise.
My comment may be long, but hopefully beneficial...
At first glance, the 4 noble Truths seem simple and easy to comprehend, but it is not so. Though maybe simple, they are very profound. With a further investigation into them, we might discover that the 4 Noble truths are encompassing most, if not the whole, of human experience.
1. Lets take a closer look into the first Noble Truth, that is of suffering:
What the Buddha talks about here is the full range of suffering, from the slightest discontent and discomfort all the way to the most gross forms of suffering (harsh injuries, disasters, sever illnesses, death and so on). Now, you ask what about love, enjoyment, pleasures etc. If you examine them closely, you'll discover that each and everyone of them are containing the seeds of its opposite, i.e suffering. Not only that, but each and every pleasure we can think of is mixed with anguish and distress. Love to your mate if full of insecurity, fear to loose, fear of separation. Or when we are enjoying our time in a splendid way, the slightest thought about its near coming end of this good time we have, already blemishes the joy we feel...
Now all that is still not a problem, if we could take them in a sportive attitude. The simple, factual truth is contrary to that: when we enjoy, we hold onto it fast, and when we start to loose it (since everything is impermanent
On the other hand, when we suffer, when we feel pain, ah, how long it will last more? It seems there is no end to it...
Now, everything you talked about (love, pleasure etc.) containing all of what I described. Are you still think that they are so desirable? Do you have the attitude of calmness, peace and equanimity and playfulness towards the mishaps and miseries of life? If your answer is affirmative, there is no need for the Buddha-Dharma for you, but if this is not the case, well, you might rethink the Buddha-Dharma as means to freedom and unconditional happiness.
2. The Second Noble Truth, that of the cause of suffering, craving, or as the Buddha calls it - Thirst (Pali - Tanha, Sanskrit - Trishna):
What is propelling us in thought, speech and acting? It is the ongoing and never-quenched craving. Once we got something we wanted, we move on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing... Yes, you want the explore and know about the infinite universe that lies in front of you, yes, there is so much to know and understand, but how much more do you really need to know? Or do you want your thirst to continue without ever quenching it?
Now, it is true that this thirst motivates us in many things that are good and beneficial, and if it would be only it, no need for us to be free from this thirst. But again, since our thirst is never satisfied, we want more and more. We never have enough. Not only we want what we've already got, but we also want what he has, what she has, and when we don't get it, how angry we become. This way our thirst is accompanied with envy, anger, hatred and so on.
On the other hand, when our thirst has been satiated, when we content and at ease, what we really need more? Exploring the universe (curiosity), wanting more, wishing for more pleasures, more enjoyments, all these are various forms of subtle and gross cravings and desires, many of them not very beneficial and others very harmful. Contrary to all that, The Buddha-Dharma teaches us the art and skillfulness of good heart, unconditioned contentedness and peace. With contentedness we are happy, goodhearted and generous.
Are you satisfied when you fulfilled your wants and cravings, or are you angry, raged, or full of grief when you don't get what you want? Can you live in peace when others have things that you yourself don't have? Or your heart trembles with envy and greed?
3. The Third Noble Truth, that of the possibility to end all suffering: the Buddha teaches us that if we abandon and let go of our never-ending thirst, we will be free from the yokes of ceaselessly being at thirst.
4. The Fourth Noble Truth, the Noble Eight-Fold Path:
In this Noble Eight-Fold Path the Buddha-teaches us how to transform our minds from minds who are restless, ever occupied in cravings, anger, disappointment, discontent, envy, ignorance and so on, into a mind which sees everything clearly, brightly, broadly and deeply. Mind that is at ease, happiness and ongoing contentment. The Noble Eight-Fold Path teaches us how to live our best as humans (not "erasing all that is human within us" as you've said above), instead of staying mostly in constant anxiety, full of negative emotions and an endless yearning for a better life that is lying somewhere in other places, sometime in the future, outside of us. In difference from that, the Buddha teaches us to find the better not somewhere/sometime else and outside, but within our selves, in the here-and-now, better which will be with us all the time, since it is not conditioned by place, time, or any other circumstances.
The Four Noble Truths are truly simple, yet enormously profound. Not necessarily in the sense of sophistication and complexity, but in the way of how they encompasses the whole of the human experience through and through. They broad and penetrating deeply into the core of our being. Not only the Four Noble Truths encompasses the human experience, but also all other sentient-being lives as well. The Buddha's teachings are many - thousands of Sutras & Sastras, writings and books, different schools, sophisticated and complexed philosophies, metaphysics and so on and on, but all of them without exeption are contained within these 2 simple sentences which the Buddha said in 2 different occasions (free citations from my memory):
'All I teach is suffering and the way to liberation from suffering'
'avoid evil, do good and purify your mind'
So simple are the Buddha's teachings, but how vast and deep they are!
Whether you may continue to tread the Buddha-Dharma or not, may you be happy at all times and everywhere, and may you be the cause of happiness to everyone else at all time and everywhere
The 4 noble truths.
The 8 fold path.
Anything else you hear is only added commentry, added over the years.
Buddha said this himself.
best wishes on your path.
I have asked you respectfully.
If you don't start using proper English on this forum, as requested, I WILL begin to amend your posts.
The gist will be the same; the English, more conventional.
Please: either use proper intelligible English yourself, or prepare to have some of your posts changed.
And be respectful with your comments.
Firstly, I realized that the 4 noble truths should be approached scientifically and not emotionally. It is a realization of a disease of the mind. I like the statement 'there is suffering', you acknowledge the fact that there is suffering, not your suffering, but suffering in general. You begin to observe suffering within you and without you. 'The Cause of Suffering is craving', the desire and you observe that phenomenon within you and without you and so on and so forth.
Secondly, for me I realize that Buddhism is a vast territory. You can find marvellous things there in all the three yanas. So, I started my search from that premise.
With metta,
budding_flower...