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The Wisdom of Buddha Accumulated or Awakened?

ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
edited January 2006 in Buddhism Basics
Did the Buddha gain his significantly more "paranormal" and also the normal insights like rebirth, karma slowly through his practice or was he just suddenly enlightened and just saw everything at one goal?

How did he go about realizing rebirth and karma(in a more advanced level, beoynd that of cause and effect - like desire)?

Comments

  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited January 2006
    Enlightenment is all of a piece, in an instant. It isn't accumulated because it isn't something that happens up in the head. It's not intellectual. That being said, there are usually many different awakenings, from shallow to deep and the practice does take years. Practice and enlightenment aren't separate and practice doesn't stop with awakening.
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Did every single point in the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths come to him only after Nirvana?
  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited January 2006
    Enlightenment is all of a piece. Whilst some of what the Buddha said is of course based on his own experience prior to awakening, such as how to avoid some of the pitfalls of working too hard on one's practice and being too slack for example, the actual insight would be whole and complete in an instant. Bear in mind that anything said about Enlightenment is like trying to describe a beach by picking up a grain of sand and trying to explain it. Conceptual and verbal descriptions of Enlightenment or it's implications also takes time to mature. We might see things as they are but learning to function and to manifest that seeing, especially learning to express that seeing verbally, do take time. The other thing is that Enlightenment is not something caused, it is not the result of practice, it is not conditioned. Enlightenment is practice and practice is always done over time, practice is after all one's whole life.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Zenmonk,

    How do we know this to be true?

    Do we know for sure that his wisdom did not grow over his time as an ascetic?

    I mean, he tried "this" - no worky. He tried "that" - no worky. Then something happened, which caused him to meditate, at that time, at that place and then boing! Enlightenment.

    I sometimes think it could have been something like an algebra problem.

    You have to know the rules before beginning to work on a problem. So, there is a level of knowledge, trial and error - that have taken place. Certain truths have become known to be "true" (multiplication before addition, for example). Then once you ply these tools, it is possible for you to realize the answer to the problem.

    I'm sure you have a website backing up your thinking - I'd like to see it.

    -bf

    btw... got my stuff. love it. thank you very much.
  • harlanharlan
    edited January 2006
    I'm of the opinion that 'enlightenment', is both abrupt and complete as well as continually unfolding.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    And that you can have your cake AND eat it too! :)

    -bf
  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    Zenmonk,

    How do we know this to be true?

    Do we know for sure that his wisdom did not grow over his time as an ascetic?

    I mean, he tried "this" - no worky. He tried "that" - no worky. Then something happened, which caused him to meditate, at that time, at that place and then boing! Enlightenment.

    I sometimes think it could have been something like an algebra problem.

    You have to know the rules before beginning to work on a problem. So, there is a level of knowledge, trial and error - that have taken place. Certain truths have become known to be "true" (multiplication before addition, for example). Then once you ply these tools, it is possible for you to realize the answer to the problem.

    I'm sure you have a website backing up your thinking - I'd like to see it.

    -bf

    btw... got my stuff. love it. thank you very much.

    I'm glad you finally got your Zafu. I was getting worried there.

    As to your good questions. How does one know? Use that Zafu, find out what you already know. I suspect that the 'rules' are often worked out after the solution is arrived at. Often the solution comes in a flash and then it's explained to death. I think explanations often miss the point.

    On the one hand, sure, the Buddha, as you said, found out that certain stuff, like starving yourself and denying yourself pleasure didn't work, neither did being driven by selfish desires. He returned to just sitting, which he'd done spontaneously as a child, simply resting in awareness, without either indulging thoughts or supressing them. Then on the morning of December 8th, seeing the morning star, he saw also his True Nature and that of all beings and he exlaimed, “How wonderful. How wonderful. All things are enlightened exactly as they are!" He had realized that he was all beings, he was the morning star. No difference, no gap.

    With that experience, you see with the same eyes as the Buddha, you hear with the same ears. There is absolutely no difference between his enlightened nature and yours, none at all. It's the same enlightenment. From one standpoint it's perfectly true that the Buddha practiced before that enlightenment. Through practice he integrated his body and mind, cut through the mental chatter, worked with his daily life. So there is, from that point of view, a progression. There is a path that we follow, and it's gradual and it is about finding out that yes, this "no worky" and that "no worky", but that itself does not produce enlightenment. Enlightenment is not conditional, not caused by anything, not the result of anything. There is practice and there is Enlightenment. From the viewpoint of gradual progression - we practice and then, at some point, awaken. But the other side of that is that Practice itself is Enlightenment. Enlightenment adds nothing and takes away nothing and is instantaneous. Both are equally valid, both are true.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Some related passages for your discussion:

    Maha-Saccaka Sutta

    Simsapa Sutta

    Bodhi Sutta

    The Group of Fours

    Lokayatika Sutta

    I hope that you find these references useful.

    :)

    Jason
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Thanks, Jason.

    You're like my walking library :)

    -bf
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2006
    buddhafoot,

    You're welcome. You're like my true sarcastic self that I fear to show people on a Buddhist forum simply because I would be betraying the wiscracking thetan that lives in my perineum.

    Hail Hubbard!

    :)

    Jason
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    I don't know whut ya were just jawing 'bout... but it shure sounded perty.

    -bf
  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited January 2006
    :hair: Watch out for the lizard men.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Genryu,

    Yea, I sure wouldn't want my GEs to be trapped in cassettes and then taken to a US underground base where they would be spoon fed to some damn lizard man. Nobody is going to use My GEs to procreate, not if I can help it!

    :angry:

    Jason
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Elohim wrote:
    buddhafoot,

    You're welcome. You're like my true sarcastic self that I fear to show people on a Buddhist forum simply because I would be betraying the wiscracking thetan that lives in my perineum.

    Hail Hubbard!

    :)

    Jason


    Lives in your what.....?!?

    Some Wise Crack.....! :wow:
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Fede,

    Just a little demonstration to Herman that you can find tactful ways of being vulgar, and possibly augment someone's vocabulary in the process. Skillful means Fede, skillful means.

    ;)

    Jason
  • KnitwitchKnitwitch
    edited January 2006
    Oh was that vulgar? I though Perineum was a little known Greek Island! Duh!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Elohim wrote:
    Fede,

    Just a little demonstration to Herman that you can find tactful ways of being vulgar, and possibly augment someone's vocabulary in the process. Skillful means Fede, skillful means.

    ;)

    Jason

    Got it..... ;)
  • _BeautifulSpringtime_BeautifulSpringtime Veteran
    edited January 2006
    zenmonk_genryu wrote:
    But the other side of that is that Practice itself is Enlightenment. Enlightenment adds nothing and takes away nothing and is instantaneous. Both are equally valid, both are true.


    shusho ichinyo (practice and enlightenment are one) - Dogen Zenji

    :)
  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited January 2006
    Shusho ichinyo :cheer:
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Knitwitch wrote:
    Oh was that vulgar? I though Perineum was a little known Greek Island! Duh!

    Yeah, you know, the Colossus of Perineum"!

    Palzang
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    I don't know whut ya were just jawing 'bout... but it shure sounded perty.

    -bf


    bf, that is THE funniest picture I've seen in a long, long time! Thanks!

    Palzang
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    You're welcome Pal :)

    I loved Burt Lancaster in "From Here To Perineum"

    or

    Toy Story when Buzz Lightyear would leap in the air and say, "To perineum, and beyond!"

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    You can say it to the perennial ever-annoying and infuriating question kids always hurl at you, on a car journey, every five minutes...
    "Are we there yet?!?"

    No but we're - perineum!

    bah-dhum!
  • KnitwitchKnitwitch
    edited January 2006
    Or perhaps the other two hobbits Perry n' Ian who were left out of the film to avoid getting an 18 rating!
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