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The Dalai Lama (Jeffrey and Thao) AFAIK hasn't performed the esoteric rituals pertaining to the Kalachakra Tantra. He has chosen not to continue that tradition (AFAIK). Whether anyone else is continuing the tradition, I don't know. I thought I'd read that he is the only one empowered to give any Kalachakra teachings, exoteric, or esoteric, but that may be incorrect.
I don't care of the thread veers of course in the way it has. That's fine because there is some relationship.
But I will ask again -- are there any mainstream Buddhist bodies (so to speak) that promote the kind of sexuality some of you are talking about. Or, are they independent "splinter" groups.
I will not post on this thread again since the op said felt that it was hijacked by me. i think a new thread should be started after all. if it gets started then you can ask those questions again.
But I also know that other Tibetan groups still give tantric teachings that include sex as I have talked with them. Those on Dharma Wheel talked about it. Nimdrol is a tantric teacher so I am told.
But I also know that other Tibetan groups still give tantric teachings that include sex as I have talked with them. Those on Dharma Wheel talked about it. Nimdrol is a tantric teacher so I am told.
"tibetan buddhism" is not a formal group.
To my knowledge there are 3 internationally recognized Buddhist councils: 1. The World Buddhist Sangha Council 2. The World Buddhist Forum 3. The World Fellowship Of Buddhists
Do any of these 3 groups condone what you are talking about?
I think further allegation has been made than teachings regarding sex. Read the posts by Lama Shenpen. She introduces how sexuality is used in buddhist practice.
Thus it is indisputable that sexuality is used as a buddhist teaching within at least one sangha in tibetan buddhism.
Thao has made additional allegations:
"Parents in Tibet used to sell their young children, boys and girls to the lamas who used them as consorts in tantric sex. Someday Tibetan Buddhism may be exposed for what it is, just that, meditation combined with sex."
"Anyone who teaches tantra teaches this. These teachings are secret. This book, Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra, comes from the Library of Tibetan Works & Archives.
I would not say that the young boys and girls were sold as sex slaves, but they were given to the monasteries for a price. and they can then be used in initiations if it so pleases the lamas."
"sex+enlightenment+meditation in Tibetan Buddhism all go hand in hand. The gurus will not admit it since to do so puts them in hell in the next life, to even read the material if you are not initiated puts you in hell."
"This is not what Buddha taught. The Tantras came from India and were taken to Tibet in the 8th Century. Buddha said that what he taught was not secret or hidden. The Tantras are hidden. But more and more they are being found out."
"Where do you think the Tibetans in tibet got 11,12, 13 year old girls to use in their Tantric practices? They were given to them, either for a little money or free, but given just the same. If you think what I have said is evil, what I can tell you is that it is very evil for lamas to use girls for their sex/meditation. What you are learning in regards to Tibetan teachings in the West is a very sanitized form. If you read all of the research on tantra that is written in The Shadow of the Dalai Lama you would learn how they obtained these young girls, even how they have had to coax them with sweets to get them to do what they want. If you bought any of the books that they reference as I did you will find that what I am saying is not lies. What is being said by lamas today is lies."
To my knowledge there are 3 internationally recognized Buddhist councils: 1. The World Buddhist Sangha Council 2. The World Buddhist Forum 3. The World Fellowship Of Buddhists
Do any of these 3 groups condone what you are talking about?
They wouldn't condone it if they knew about it. It's top-secret.
oh, okay. vinlyn. no other group but tibetan buddhism teaches these secret tantra teachings.
Vietnamese Zen practices tantra according to Wikipedia, and the Japanese also have a tantric tradition. But that doesn't necessarily mean they have rituals that involve girls, it just means they practice with consorts. I think those rituals involving very young girls come from India, whereas Japanese tantra comes from China. I'm not sure about Vietnamese tantra's provenance.
Who's "Nimdrol"? Sounds like a Westerner who took a Tibetan name....
Additionally no link has been formed between any existent tibetan buddhist (including HHDL) and the kalachakra.
Jeffrey, what do you mean? HHDL has traveled the world presenting the exoteric side of the Kalachakra teachings. Did you mean to say it can't be proven that any existent Tibetan practitioner has performed these esoteric rituals? Well, probably not, since they're secret. Or were, until Geshe Darghey published the secret part of the Kalachakra. But if anyone continues to perform them, it would be secret. One of Thao's points is that the Buddha made it clear that there should be no secret practices or teachings.
Thao, I looked up Jonang Foundation. It says that in the advanced practices a consort is used, it doesn't mention using young girls. It also says its aim is to support the continuation of the Jonang tradition in Tibet, so I'm assuming young girls aren't used in the rituals, the Chinese wouldn't allow the use of minors in these rituals. If they'd allow the rituals at all. I'm puzzled by this organization. At least they're above-board about the use of consorts. But HHDL has also discussed the fact that consorts are used in some cases in generating tummo.
Thao, I looked up Jonang Foundation. It says that in the advanced practices a consort is used, it doesn't mention using young girls. It also says its aim is to support the continuation of the Jonang tradition in Tibet, so I'm assuming young girls aren't used in the rituals, the Chinese wouldn't allow the use of minors in these rituals. If they'd allow the rituals at all. I'm puzzled by this organization. At least they're above-board about the use of consorts. But HHDL has also discussed the fact that consorts are used in some cases in generating tummo.
Thanks. My ex teacher is from that tradition and claims that no consorts, no visualizations are used. He didn't think that I could do research I guess. Thanks for finding that out. I only saw the seminal retention. A lying teacher sure gets my goat.
They don't use young girls in American for fear of getting sued.
To my knowledge there are 3 internationally recognized Buddhist councils: 1. The World Buddhist Sangha Council 2. The World Buddhist Forum 3. The World Fellowship Of Buddhists
Do any of these 3 groups condone what you are talking about?
They wouldn't condone it if they knew about it. It's top-secret.
oh, okay. vinlyn. no other group but tibetan buddhism teaches these secret tantra teachings.
Vietnamese Zen practices tantra according to Wikipedia, and the Japanese also have a tantric tradition. But that doesn't necessarily mean they have rituals that involve girls, it just means they practice with consorts. I think those rituals involving very young girls come from India, whereas Japanese tantra comes from China. I'm not sure about Vietnamese tantra's provenance.
Who's "Nimdrol"? Sounds like a Westerner who took a Tibetan name....
Nimdrol is a Tibetan teacher who posts on Dharma Wheel and used to be on eSangha.
This is the First Buddhist Council that I have been referring to. Ananda had learned everything from Buddha and he told the council the teachings in 542-543 BCE. The tantra were not part of the teachings and neither were the Mahayanas. his teachings that he got from the Buddha became the Pali Canon.
This is the only council that I am concerned with and the only one that anyone should really be concerned with. They do include Tibetan Buddhism, but like I said this proves nothing. This doesn't mean that Zen and Theravada Buddhists accept Tantra texts. It only shows that they are trying to show tolerance, which is something that I refuse to show. Tolerance does not mean acceptance. I do know that these practices are not condoned.
If you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, prove it.
None of these practices are found in the Pali Canon. Ananda was Buddha's close disciple, so if Buddha taught this then he would have known and expounded it at the council.
So instead of me always answering questions why don't you answer those of mine? Again, if you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, then prove it.
"Jeffrey, what do you mean? HHDL has traveled the world presenting the exoteric side of the Kalachakra teachings. Did you mean to say it can't be proven that any existent Tibetan practitioner has performed these esoteric rituals? Well, probably not, since they're secret. Or were, until Geshe Darghey published the secret part of the Kalachakra. But if anyone continues to perform them, it would be secret. One of Thao's points is that the Buddha made it clear that there should be no secret practices or teachings."
Holding someone accountable to speculations because something might be secret is wrong. For example you may be having tantric rituals in your home in your living room. But we should not say that compassionate warrior is having sex with 11 year old girls unless we know that. If it is secret then that means we don't know about it. If someone is on murder trial and the defense attorney says there is no evidence of the crime.... then the prosecutor says no theres no evidence because its secret... we don't convict the defendent based on the POSSIBILITY of something may be going on which is secret.
Speculation about a secret is not evidence my friend.
Can you quote directly from the kalachakra what you object to? I am not talking about second hand sources describing what is in the kalachakra. My question is whether the kalachakra the dalai lama is talking about is the same kalachakra in your other quotations.
Were the other quotations from a sex manual which borrows from the kalachakra?
Second please quote exactly what you object to FROM the kalachakra.
"This is the First Buddhist Council that I have been referring to. Ananda had learned everything from Buddha and he told the council the teachings in 542-543 BCE. The tantra were not part of the teachings and neither were the Mahayanas. his teachings that he got from the Buddha became the Pali Canon."
Did the buddha say that all of his teachings were in the Pali Canon? No the Pali Canon existed after the fact of buddha. The Pali Canon quite possibly could not be the complete teachings and it would be speculation post-2500 years to say that they are.
This problem happens in Christianity as well with gnostic gospels being found.
According to wikipedia Theravadans practiced tantra from 800 BCE to 1000 BCE. In wikipedia. There were also mahayana practitioners in the Theravadan tradition during certain times.
"None of these practices are found in the Pali Canon. Ananda was Buddha's close disciple, so if Buddha taught this then he would have known and expounded it at the council."
Circular reasoning to have the Pali Canon prove its own authority. There was a schism. Do you believe that the 'good guys' (cowboys) were the Theravadans and the 'bad guys' (Indians) were the mahayanists?
This is the First Buddhist Council that I have been referring to. Ananda had learned everything from Buddha and he told the council the teachings in 542-543 BCE. The tantra were not part of the teachings and neither were the Mahayanas. his teachings that he got from the Buddha became the Pali Canon.
This is the only council that I am concerned with and the only one that anyone should really be concerned with. They do include Tibetan Buddhism, but like I said this proves nothing. This doesn't mean that Zen and Theravada Buddhists accept Tantra texts. It only shows that they are trying to show tolerance, which is something that I refuse to show. Tolerance does not mean acceptance. I do know that these practices are not condoned.
If you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, prove it.
None of these practices are found in the Pali Canon. Ananda was Buddha's close disciple, so if Buddha taught this then he would have known and expounded it at the council.
So instead of me always answering questions why don't you answer those of mine? Again, if you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, then prove it.
Why would I want to prove that Theravadas practice Tantra, since they don't.
Thao's posts on this thread are among the longest of any topic I've yet seen here. I also think they're misleading because, in my view, she is equating what some Buddhists may do with Buddhism. Again, as I stated previously, because a tiny number of Mormons who are living outside the parent church are practicing polygamy, does not mean that Mormons support or participate in polygamy. Rather than a topic to be discussed, this appears to be an obsession with Thao.
"So instead of me always answering questions why don't you answer those of mine? Again, if you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra,"
Ummm nobody has said that theravadans practice tantra except from 800 BCE to 1000 BCE which is found in wikipedia.
"then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, then prove it."
Can you prove that there was not a dharma lineage going back to buddha? Lack of proof doesn't prove the contrary. For example you do not have proof that I am male. I could be female and you do not have proof that I am male. This does not mean that I am not female.
Can you quote directly from the kalachakra what you object to? I am not talking about second hand sources describing what is in the kalachakra. My question is whether the kalachakra the dalai lama is talking about is the same kalachakra in your other quotations.
This is a good and fair question. I'd be interested in seeing those passages, it might save me buying the book (17$ + shipping). I've read about them in Shadow of the DL, but it would be very valuable to see quotes straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Can you quote directly from the kalachakra what you object to? I am not talking about second hand sources describing what is in the kalachakra. My question is whether the kalachakra the dalai lama is talking about is the same kalachakra in your other quotations.
Were the other quotations from a sex manual which borrows from the kalachakra?
Second please quote exactly what you object to FROM the kalachakra.
I did this Jeffrey. Go back and read my posts. You will find it in quotes and it will say it is from the commentary of the kalachakra tantra. same tantra. tomorrow if this thread is not locked i will quote more things from the book.
The book is worth owning Compassionate because after you have the book you can say, i am getting this from the text not from the shadow of the dalai lama and then the tibetans can't say it is a lie what the shadow says, because it is in their text. when i wrote on dharma wheel that i got the book and it is like what the trimondis said no one came back and said a word but before they were telling me that the trimondis took things out of context. no they didn't. the book goes into detail about how you practice the tantras, but at the same time a person really needs a teacher, and a teacher is all willing to show you how if you are young and sexy. but they will probably show a man anyway as then age doesn't matter.
also the first part of the book is the teachings that my ex teacher was giving me about morals, etc. and then you get to this part and wonder what happened to the morals.
so get the book. you won't be disappointed. i actually threw out all of my teachers letters to me, the lessons, and the tibetan gifts he gave to me, but i felt that this book i should save because it is proof as to what is being taught.
Can you do it again? Your posts are so long with so many sources that it is difficult for me to see which is which. Please make it easy for us to follow along.
Can you please not post too much information at once? And take us logically and stepwise through this. It does not add to your point to post voluminous amounts of material without having a dialogue.
Remember that you did not assimilate this information in 5 minutes I assume. You read it over several days.
"You keep taking me in circles because you never look at the links."
That is correct that I do not read links. I do ask questions and want to understand what we are discussing but I don't enjoy non-interactive learning. I never read more than one chapter a day of books because it is difficult for me to pay attention to such material. I am not making this up or I would have checked your link. Obviously I am interested in discussing these questions.
I understand that you are responding to my criticism to back yourself up with sources. I did not anticipate how difficult it would be to check on you; there are so many websites and books etc.
My aunt is a staunch Dutch Christian Reformed evanilist. I am sure she could recommend numerous books why buddhism is devil worship and why I should accept the Lord. I don't read those either.
There is a lady who reported that milk was not healthy and I was critical of her as well, not having sources. I am seeing a pattern in my desires I guess
I am sorry I asked you for sources. I did that because I thought you were insane/hostile and only seeking attention for yourself by making accusations. It is not your fault that I won't check your sources; so I won't ask for them anymore.
@Vinlyn Look up "Mahamudra" and "Karmamudra" on Wikipedia (two separate topics/entries). It mentions the use of consorts.
Jeffrey, I don't know if the "bliss" that one experiences from tantric practice represents true Enlightenment. If it did, the effects, I would think, would be permanent, as was the Buddha's Enlightenment. One wouldn't need "booster shots" regularly. I think bliss is bliss, Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Temporary bliss seems to engender attachment to bliss and the need to repeat the "practice". But I'm still looking into this question. But I do believe the reports I've read that tantric practice is a spiritual practice. If done properly, that is. Shamar Rinpoche says it was de-spiritualized in much of the West in the 70's and 80's, and misused. What I doubt is that it's a true path to authentic Enlightenment.
I am sorry I asked you for sources. I did that because I thought you were insane/hostile and only seeking attention for yourself by making accusations.
grr :grumble: I've checked her sources, I didn't find a problem, except that there's still no documentation that the rituals involving girls are still (currently) practiced "live". But the fact that this has been part of the tradition is indisputable, IMO.
P.S. Thao: if you're young and sexy (or even if you just look young and naive--no need to be sexy, they're into little girls, bear in mind) they'll only claim to show you tantric sex. As June Campbell (and many others) discovered, the "practice" turns out to be ordinary, tawdry sex, and REALLY BAD sex at that (male-centric, no concern for the woman).
I have read that bliss refers to non-ego sensitivity. Bliss can be both pleasure and pain.
I"ve never heard that bliss can be pain. I don't think that's what they're talking about in the tantric texts. They talk about the Four Blisses, and they're not discussing pain.
But maybe in another context "bliss" can refer to pain as well as pleasure. Could you explain?
I've definitely heard that enlightenment is not free from pain. If you have arthritus and are enlightened you still experience pain. I have heard something from TB called 'one taste' which incidentally I believe has been used as a justification for misbehaviour: "oh he is at one taste consciousness he helped the married wife he slept with".
I think that bliss is non-grasping. So within the pain there is just sensitivity and no rejection of the pain. The ego rejection is just impermanent mental thinking which we grasp onto and it freezes the energy and distorts the clarity openness and sensitivity INTO anger delusion and craving
Jeffrey, i will once again post what i have learned from the Commentary of the Kalachakra, but it will have to be tomorrow, and i can't do it in one day because i have a book group to go to tomorrow and weeding in my garden. I will make a big heading and keep it short.
I think you mentioned somewhere that you are only being taught regular meditation. Well, that is the beginning. You have to then take other vows and empowerments to get the tantric teachings.
I believe what you said dakini. i have read that the woman is just a vessel, a real consort is only energy and consciousness. not actually a real person with real needs, but i wrote about that on the other thread.
Good idea, Thao. Let's consolidate the topic by keeping to the other thread. Then Vinlyn can get his thread back, or redirect the discussion, as he wishes. We're getting some duplication between the two threads.
Comments
But I will ask again -- are there any mainstream Buddhist bodies (so to speak) that promote the kind of sexuality some of you are talking about. Or, are they independent "splinter" groups.
compassionate_warrior: there is a group that still gives kalachakra initiations:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/kalachakra-practice-outline
But I also know that other Tibetan groups still give tantric teachings that include sex as I have talked with them. Those on Dharma Wheel talked about it. Nimdrol is a tantric teacher so I am told.
To my knowledge there are 3 internationally recognized Buddhist councils:
1. The World Buddhist Sangha Council
2. The World Buddhist Forum
3. The World Fellowship Of Buddhists
Do any of these 3 groups condone what you are talking about?
Thus it is indisputable that sexuality is used as a buddhist teaching within at least one sangha in tibetan buddhism.
Thao has made additional allegations:
"Parents in Tibet used to sell their young children, boys and girls to the lamas who used them as consorts in tantric sex. Someday Tibetan Buddhism may be exposed for what it is, just that, meditation combined with sex."
"Anyone who teaches tantra teaches this. These teachings are secret. This book, Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra, comes from the Library of Tibetan Works & Archives.
I would not say that the young boys and girls were sold as sex slaves, but they were given to the monasteries for a price. and they can then be used in initiations if it so pleases the lamas."
"sex+enlightenment+meditation in Tibetan Buddhism all go hand in hand. The gurus will not admit it since to do so puts them in hell in the next life, to even read the material if you are not initiated puts you in hell."
"This is not what Buddha taught. The Tantras came from India and were taken to Tibet in the 8th Century. Buddha said that what he taught was not secret or hidden. The Tantras are hidden. But more and more they are being found out."
"Where do you think the Tibetans in tibet got 11,12, 13 year old girls to use in their Tantric practices? They were given to them, either for a little money or free, but given just the same. If you think what I have said is evil, what I can tell you is that it is very evil for lamas to use girls for their sex/meditation. What you are learning in regards to Tibetan teachings in the West is a very sanitized form. If you read all of the research on tantra that is written in The Shadow of the Dalai Lama you would learn how they obtained these young girls, even how they have had to coax them with sweets to get them to do what they want. If you bought any of the books that they reference as I did you will find that what I am saying is not lies. What is being said by lamas today is lies."
I could post quotes from Mein Kampf and then conclude that germans were evil.
Who's "Nimdrol"? Sounds like a Westerner who took a Tibetan name....
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/attending_kalachakra_initiation/question_sessions_hh/question_hh_initiation_04.html
http://www.dalailama.com/teachings/kalachakra-initiations
You keep taking me in circles because you never look at the links.
They don't use young girls in American for fear of getting sued.
Do any of the three groups I mentioned -- internationally recognized Buddhist organizations -- condone the practices you continue to rant about.
Yes or no.
This is the First Buddhist Council that I have been referring to. Ananda had learned everything from Buddha and he told the council the teachings in 542-543 BCE. The tantra were not part of the teachings and neither were the Mahayanas. his teachings that he got from the Buddha became the Pali Canon.
This is the only council that I am concerned with and the only one that anyone should really be concerned with. They do include Tibetan Buddhism, but like I said this proves nothing. This doesn't mean that Zen and Theravada Buddhists accept Tantra texts. It only shows that they are trying to show tolerance, which is something that I refuse to show. Tolerance does not mean acceptance. I do know that these practices are not condoned.
If you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, prove it.
None of these practices are found in the Pali Canon. Ananda was Buddha's close disciple, so if Buddha taught this then he would have known and expounded it at the council.
So instead of me always answering questions why don't you answer those of mine? Again, if you can prove to me that Theravadas practice tantra, then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, then prove it.
Holding someone accountable to speculations because something might be secret is wrong. For example you may be having tantric rituals in your home in your living room. But we should not say that compassionate warrior is having sex with 11 year old girls unless we know that. If it is secret then that means we don't know about it. If someone is on murder trial and the defense attorney says there is no evidence of the crime.... then the prosecutor says no theres no evidence because its secret... we don't convict the defendent based on the POSSIBILITY of something may be going on which is secret.
Speculation about a secret is not evidence my friend.
Can you quote directly from the kalachakra what you object to? I am not talking about second hand sources describing what is in the kalachakra. My question is whether the kalachakra the dalai lama is talking about is the same kalachakra in your other quotations.
Were the other quotations from a sex manual which borrows from the kalachakra?
Second please quote exactly what you object to FROM the kalachakra.
Did the buddha say that all of his teachings were in the Pali Canon? No the Pali Canon existed after the fact of buddha. The Pali Canon quite possibly could not be the complete teachings and it would be speculation post-2500 years to say that they are.
This problem happens in Christianity as well with gnostic gospels being found.
I didn't say I could prove that. If you can prove to me that you are the arbiter of what is and isn't buddhas teaching then prove that please.
Circular reasoning to have the Pali Canon prove its own authority. There was a schism. Do you believe that the 'good guys' (cowboys) were the Theravadans and the 'bad guys' (Indians) were the mahayanists?
Ummm nobody has said that theravadans practice tantra except from 800 BCE to 1000 BCE which is found in wikipedia.
"then prove it. If you can prove that Buddha took the texts to Tibet, then prove it."
Can you prove that there was not a dharma lineage going back to buddha? Lack of proof doesn't prove the contrary. For example you do not have proof that I am male. I could be female and you do not have proof that I am male. This does not mean that I am not female.
The book is worth owning Compassionate because after you have the book you can say, i am getting this from the text not from the shadow of the dalai lama and then the tibetans can't say it is a lie what the shadow says, because it is in their text. when i wrote on dharma wheel that i got the book and it is like what the trimondis said no one came back and said a word but before they were telling me that the trimondis took things out of context. no they didn't. the book goes into detail about how you practice the tantras, but at the same time a person really needs a teacher, and a teacher is all willing to show you how if you are young and sexy. but they will probably show a man anyway as then age doesn't matter.
also the first part of the book is the teachings that my ex teacher was giving me about morals, etc. and then you get to this part and wonder what happened to the morals.
so get the book. you won't be disappointed. i actually threw out all of my teachers letters to me, the lessons, and the tibetan gifts he gave to me, but i felt that this book i should save because it is proof as to what is being taught.
Can you do it again? Your posts are so long with so many sources that it is difficult for me to see which is which. Please make it easy for us to follow along.
Can you please not post too much information at once? And take us logically and stepwise through this. It does not add to your point to post voluminous amounts of material without having a dialogue.
Remember that you did not assimilate this information in 5 minutes I assume. You read it over several days.
That is correct that I do not read links. I do ask questions and want to understand what we are discussing but I don't enjoy non-interactive learning. I never read more than one chapter a day of books because it is difficult for me to pay attention to such material. I am not making this up or I would have checked your link. Obviously I am interested in discussing these questions.
I understand that you are responding to my criticism to back yourself up with sources. I did not anticipate how difficult it would be to check on you; there are so many websites and books etc.
My aunt is a staunch Dutch Christian Reformed evanilist. I am sure she could recommend numerous books why buddhism is devil worship and why I should accept the Lord. I don't read those either.
There is a lady who reported that milk was not healthy and I was critical of her as well, not having sources. I am seeing a pattern in my desires I guess
I am sorry I asked you for sources. I did that because I thought you were insane/hostile and only seeking attention for yourself by making accusations. It is not your fault that I won't check your sources; so I won't ask for them anymore.
serva mangalam :-/
Jeffrey, I don't know if the "bliss" that one experiences from tantric practice represents true Enlightenment. If it did, the effects, I would think, would be permanent, as was the Buddha's Enlightenment. One wouldn't need "booster shots" regularly. I think bliss is bliss, Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Temporary bliss seems to engender attachment to bliss and the need to repeat the "practice". But I'm still looking into this question. But I do believe the reports I've read that tantric practice is a spiritual practice. If done properly, that is. Shamar Rinpoche says it was de-spiritualized in much of the West in the 70's and 80's, and misused. What I doubt is that it's a true path to authentic Enlightenment. grr :grumble:
I've checked her sources, I didn't find a problem, except that there's still no documentation that the rituals involving girls are still (currently) practiced "live". But the fact that this has been part of the tradition is indisputable, IMO.
I have read that bliss refers to non-ego sensitivity. Bliss can be both pleasure and pain.
But maybe in another context "bliss" can refer to pain as well as pleasure. Could you explain?
I think you mentioned somewhere that you are only being taught regular meditation. Well, that is the beginning. You have to then take other vows and empowerments to get the tantric teachings.
I believe what you said dakini. i have read that the woman is just a vessel, a real consort is only energy and consciousness. not actually a real person with real needs, but i wrote about that on the other thread.
this teaching is only fun for the man i believe.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/10956/did-buddha-teach-the-tantras-and-tantric-sex-and-what-is-this-teaching#Item_111