Lance Armstrong uses dope. What is the bad karma, if any?

jll

Lance Armstrong uses dope. What is the bad karma, if any?
It is quite common in cycling.

thickpaper

Cheating?

vinlyn

Loss of reputation? Consider the various baseball players who now have the asterisk behind their stats.

Jason

Looking like an ass and possible legal trouble?

santhisouk

using dope = less virtues = less meditation = less wisdom = rebirth

taiyaki

don't think and then where is your karma? karma is cause and effect but karma is thinking.

lol bad karma only exists to one who looks for good or bad karma. don't look for either and you're free from karma.
even if you reap the benefits or negatives from your past karma, cut your thinking and bam where is your karma?


just a thought after all.

DaltheJigsaw

don't think and then where is your karma? karma is cause and effect but karma is thinking.

lol bad karma only exists to one who looks for good or bad karma. don't look for either and you're free from karma.
even if you reap the benefits or negatives from your past karma, cut your thinking and bam where is your karma?


just a thought after all.

I like that!:)
Thank you!

Mountains

Has this allegation been conclusively proven? He consistently denies it, and nobody to my knowledge has offered any incontrovertible proof of it. Everything so far has been hearsay. I'm not saying he did or didn't, but I don't think it should be stated as fact if it's not fact.

From a kamma perspective, it's cheating (if he did it), so it's not in line with the precepts. But then he's not Buddhist that I know of.

Lostie

Let's not misuse the term "karma".

"Sinning" will not lead to karma. Is this a WASP thing?

Lance Armstrong is responsible for his own actions. Whatever happens, happens.

aMatt

I would have to say the karma here is in obsessing with other people's choices. Said differently, the only difference between his karma and your karma, is your karma is important to your cultivation.

buddhajunkie

To be fair, we don't yet know whether he's a doper. His inner circle is accusing him of doping, however, it is clear the Fed's are cutting them deals to testify against Armstrong, so they have an incentive to lie.

In any case, how has Armstrong managed to escape detection while it seems every other top rider has been caught?

Bodha8

Does testicular cancer count??

happyjourney

What drug was it specifically? unless it was going to help him win, it isn't cheating

vinlyn

The more I think about this, the more I know I don't know the answer to the question asked by the OP.

But it sure is a good focus on what people think karma really is...a punishment or a result of bad decision making which may or may not happen or may or may not have a bad result.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

Jason

What drug was it specifically? unless it was going to help him win, it isn't cheating

This 60 Minutes interview may give you some idea of the allegations.

zenff

Even when no-one ever finds out; when I am living a lie, I know.
(Emphasis on I)
I may come up with reasons and rationalizations; but deep inside I know any success is stained. The joy will never be real. I will always be dissatisfied.
I don’t know if it is karma; but I think that’s how it works.

dorje

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

That's because Lance Armstrong is not a Buddhist in the first place, so the precepts do not apply to him since he did not take the vow to uphold them.

happyjourney

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

That's because Lance Armstrong is not a Buddhist in the first place, so the precepts do not apply to him since he did not take the vow to uphold them.

I think he meant in a more general sense, rather then specifcally lance.


ps.thanks for the link jason, it probably should have occured to me to look it up...

dorje

@happyjourney

We are talking now in relation to Lance Armstrong, so there is not much reason to talk about him and the workings of his karma in relation to ours, unless we are somehow connected to him in his alleged actions.

buddhajunkie

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

EPO, testosterone and blood transfusions are not intoxicants. I'm not sure if the Buddha said anything about performance-enhancing drugs.

Lance's problem (assuming he is guilty) is that he has been lying and engaging in malicious speech against his accusers.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

That's because Lance Armstrong is not a Buddhist in the first place, so the precepts do not apply to him since he did not take the vow to uphold them.

Precepts apply to everyone in the sense that people would be better off if they followed them. Non-Buddhists are not exempt from suffering or its causes.

dorje

Are you going to fault him for not following the precepts when he himself, by admission, is not spiritual?

That is his ignorance, and while it is our responsibility as a global community to take a stand against performance-enhancing drugs, he will bear the consequences of his actions. Not us.

Saying he broke the precepts when he himself doesn't subscribe to it is silly, IMHO.

buddhajunkie

It's not about fault finding. It's simply about acknowledging that bad things follow from bad actions. That happens whether or not someone subscribes to the precepts or any other aspect of Buddhism.

dorje

Well sure, that would be sensible. But to say he broke the precepts is nonsense, because he never did take a vow to uphold them. It's like the Christian fundies telling us we're going to hell because we don't believe that Jesus died for our sins.

vinlyn

Even when no-one ever finds out; when I am living a lie, I know.
(Emphasis on I)
I may come up with reasons and rationalizations; but deep inside I know any success is stained. The joy will never be real. I will always be dissatisfied.
I don’t know if it is karma; but I think that’s how it works.

Generally speaking I agree with you. But I have known people who are amoral in general, or amoral in certain regards. I think there are many athletes who see taking steroids (for example) to be a legitimate practice because they see it as perfecting their bodies.

vinlyn

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Precept against intoxicating drinks and drugs.

That's because Lance Armstrong is not a Buddhist in the first place, so the precepts do not apply to him since he did not take the vow to uphold them.

I think he meant in a more general sense, rather then specifcally lance.

Sort of. I think there are two ways to look at the Precepts. You can look at them as a personal moral code. Or you can look at them as a moral code for society. Or, you can look at them both ways.

vinlyn

Precepts apply to everyone in the sense that people would be better off if they followed them. Non-Buddhists are not exempt from suffering or its causes.

Very good point! If the concept of karma is real, it is not real just for Buddhists.

vinlyn

@happyjourney

We are talking now in relation to Lance Armstrong, so there is not much reason to talk about him and the workings of his karma in relation to ours, unless we are somehow connected to him in his alleged actions.

I see this as a discussion of Buddhist principles, using a famous example as the focus point.

I think all of us here -- even if we don't specifically say it in our posts -- give Lance the benefit of the doubt by saying (or thinking) that thus far it is merely an allegation. But, these allegations -- which have been frequent -- have followed him for years now. Nevertheless, he is innocent until proven guilty. What I don't know is...has he submitted himself to testing or has he avoided it? My guess is that he could put the matter to rest, if he did submit to regular testing.

andyZ

don't think and then where is your karma? karma is cause and effect but karma is thinking.
lol bad karma only exists to one who looks for good or bad karma. don't look for either and you're free from karma.
even if you reap the benefits or negatives from your past karma, cut your thinking and bam where is your karma?
just a thought after all.

I wouldn't look at it this way. Not labelling things and not taking into account results of your actions are two different things. Bad karma leads to suffering. Period. It may be as simple as a regret or it may be much worse. Buddha said that you can't really know the way karma works and see all the results of it but it works nonetheless.

vinlyn

don't think and then where is your karma? karma is cause and effect but karma is thinking.
lol bad karma only exists to one who looks for good or bad karma. don't look for either and you're free from karma.
even if you reap the benefits or negatives from your past karma, cut your thinking and bam where is your karma?
just a thought after all.

I wouldn't look at it this way. Not labelling things and not taking into account results of your actions are two different things. Bad karma leads to suffering. Period. It may be as simple as a regret or it may be much worse. Buddha said that you can't really know the way karma works and see all the results of it but it works nonetheless.

I agree, Andy. Perhaps part of karma is thinking. But if I punch Taiyaki in the mouth and he has me arrested, that's karma, too. And, many Buddhists believe that there is an actual...hmmmm....how do I say it..."coming down of karma on you" when you do something wrong. Hence, the belief of most Thais that people born with handicaps are suffering from the karma from their previous existence.

SandalWood

If it is illegal (or only against the rules) then Armstrong is "cheating" the other competitors. Cheating to win anything cannot be good karma.

vinlyn

If it is illegal (or only against the rules) then Armstrong is "cheating" the other competitors. Cheating to win anything cannot be good karma.

You actually remind me of another point. Are the only things "bad" those things that are formally against a rule or law? I think not.

Zayl

Please define "Dope"

Do you mean Cannabis? Heroin?

SandalWood

Are the only things "bad" those things that are formally against a rule or law? I think not.

Generally, I don't think so either. But in this case the rule is there to keep an individual from having an unfair advantage in an athletic competition.

SandalWood

What do Buddhists think about "athletic competitions"? Silly? Meaningless? Harmful? Something to be tolerated?

SherabDorje

Please define "Dope"

Do you mean Cannabis? Heroin?

Erythropoetin, testosterone, and autotransfusion. So now you know.

I'm really amazed to find a discussion like this here. :eek2:

Karma is not a tit-for-tat phenomenon. We cannot really know our own karma, let alone someone else's.

Cinorjer

The bad karma consequences has nothing to do with the dope itself, if that's true (although his body might pay a price). It's that he is breaking his vows in the form of the rules everyone agreed to follow. Now the consequence is, he'll never know if he was good enough to win without cheating, no matter what method he used. He might have been one of the best without the dope, but now he'll never know. He has thrown away the chance to know if he really could win through natural ability. Also, if he did have to cheat in order to win, he robbed the other contestants who came in second place and played fair from their deserved win.