My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill many innocent people & die in the process. C

jll

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process.
Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions
even after death. Any comments?

SherabDorje

According to karma, there is intent. Then there is suicide. Then there is the question of the people killed.

And then there is the "spiritual state", the "momentum of the stream of consciousness", of the perpetrator, which must be pretty awful, bordering on insane.

Speaking in terms of Buddhism, it's a very very awful thing.

Talisman

It is not "he" who faces the consequences of "his" actions. The new birth is conditioned by the state of becoming. This state of becoming, personified by the suicide bomber, gives rise to birth. This new birth is conditioned by the previous state of becoming. In this way, the new birth is linked to the previous state of becoming, but is also unique, being conditioned by many other factors as well, all conditioned themselves by previous karma. Evil actions lead to further suffering. Simple as that. Trying to ponder the mechanisms behind karma and rebirth is IMPOSSIBLE.

Yishai

Karma isn't retribution.

You'll get a variety of responses, but mine would say that the rebirth will be... less fortunate. He won't personally suffer because there is no self that transfers, but the rebirth will be lesser.

Cinorjer

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process.
Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions
even after death. Any comments?

I agree with the above. "He" faces the immediate consquences of destroying himself. But after death? Isn't death consequence enough? Does some baby have to suffer by carrying his bad karma, so he can be punished after death?

Or in some beliefs, he spends time in a hellish realm until the bad karma is used up, then is sent back here again. Either way, it is a tragic end and a waste of a life and other lives. But he or she can't hurt anyone else and have already inflicted the untimate punishment life has upon themselves. Let it go.

Talisman

Death is not the ultimate punishment life has to offer. Death is not a punishment at all. Everything dies.

Cinorjer

Death is not the ultimate punishment life has to offer. Death is not a punishment at all. Everything dies.

I agree. I mean to the extent people want to punish someone.

Weird_Artist

In a related matter I believed that the sexual abuse I suffered as a child was bad karma from a previous life. I have no idea if that is true, but I no longer feel the need to wonder anymore.

jll

I dont like the word punishment. Karma does not punish. It is the result. Just like the law of gravity. If you jump off a cliff, gravity is not punishing you.

aMatt

The birth that arises from a suicide bombing is present, if we look at it. Its not 'he' that suffers, its 'we'. It moves us all.

Dakini

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process.
Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions
even after death. Any comments?

Not according to his or her religion. Although I'm not sure what female suicide bombers get, in the afterlife. The men get 21 virgins, or something. Do the women get the male equivalent?

Yishai

The birth that arises from a suicide bombing is present, if we look at it. Its not 'he' that suffers, its 'we'. It moves us all.

Good point @aMatt .

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process.
Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions
even after death. Any comments?

Not according to his or her religion. Although I'm not sure what female suicide bombers get, in the afterlife. The men get 21 virgins, or something. Do the women get the male equivalent?

I think the focus is on what Buddhism has to say about the suicide bomber, not Islam However, to answer that question. A female martyr will have only one husband in Jannah. She will be satisfied with him and will need no more. So says Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen. And it's 72 hoor al-‘iyn. But the Quran also states that all desires will be fulfilled in Jannah by Allah.

SherabDorje

(This is another thread about karma in rebirth in disguise.)

seeker242

They end up here, for like 1000 years!

vinlyn

Gee...some of the same people who believe karma to be an imponderable are pondering. :hair:

taiyaki

what if such suicide bomber was just acting according to his last remaining karma and will then be born again as a buddha in his/her next life.


what if ( ).

SherabDorje

Gee...some of the same people who believe karma to be an imponderable are pondering. :hair:

Good point. But I think the general consensus among Buddhists is that going against the precepts brings about negative karma.

And I, being among those who was saying that karma is an imponderable, admit that I was (partially) incorrect about that. It's the result of karma that is imponderable, such as the where and when and how and so forth. A suicide bomber may have other things going for him/her in terms of karmic result, but of course, the true karmic result is imponderable.

Yishai

We shouldn't concern ourselves with what happens to people who commit suicide bombings (It's impossible to know). What we should concern ourselves with is caring and showing compassion to those who have lost family and friends from the bomber's actions. That is what we CAN do.

SherabDorje

We shouldn't concern ourselves with what happens to people who commit suicide bombings (It's impossible to know). What we should concern ourselves with is caring and showing compassion to those who have lost family and friends from the bomber's actions. That is what we CAN do.

:thumbsup:

SattvaPaul

We shouldn't concern ourselves with what happens to people who commit suicide bombings (It's impossible to know). What we should concern ourselves with is caring and showing compassion to those who have lost family and friends from the bomber's actions. That is what we CAN do.

And for the suicide bomber as well.

DhammaDhatu

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process. Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions even after death. Any comments?

His religion says his destination is heaven. Buddhism teaches his destination is hell. Both beliefs are mere unverified speculative views.

Regards

DhammaDhatu

The birth that arises from a suicide bombing is present, if we look at it. Its not 'he' that suffers, its 'we'.

Well spoken, according to what is known & verifiable as truth

Nirvana

I myself don't see what Buddhism has to do with this question. We're not exactly talking about voodoo here, we're talking about so-called "suicide bombers." For my taste, that term is a terrible misnomer, in that such perpetrators are not only killing themselves, they are causing traumatic injury, unspeakable violence, trillions of violent samskaras, and doing murder. The very opening chapters of their many scriptures speak of the Creator making things and calling his creation (as he made it) "Good." What gives anyone the right to destroy that Creation, mutilating and killing people? Who made the perpetrator "God," but his own inflated ego or erroneous training?

I think they should call such bombing incidents something like "solo terroblasts" and their perpetrators something like "solo terranhilators." Such human garbage should be distinguished from the unfortunate people who, while in the act of killing themselves, happen to kill others. They certainly have euphemisms or circumlocutions for nearly everything else. I recall some years ago in California even seeing a road called a "transportation corridor." Actually some terms these days are quite laughable (when not outright contemptible).

We all need to think out of the box a lot more. Conventional thinking is part of the problem and plays no iota of a part in any solution.

Dakini

I think the focus is on what Buddhism has to say about the suicide bomber, not Islam However, to answer that question. A female martyr will have only one husband in Jannah. She will be satisfied with him and will need no more. So says Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen. And it's 72 hoor al-‘iyn. But the Quran also states that all desires will be fulfilled in Jannah by Allah. But does it make sense to apply Buddhism to Islam practitioners? Maybe this raises a broader question of: do Buddhist principles and morals apply to everyone, like the Christians seem to think theirs do? Will we rot in hell for not accepting Jesus as our saviour? Do we care?

jll

Not all suicide bombers are muslims.

My question is if someone like suicide bombers who kill
many innocent people & die in the process. Certainly, he will have to face the consequence of his actions even after death. Any comments?

His religion says his destination is heaven. Buddhism teaches his destination is hell. Both beliefs are mere unverified speculative views.

Regards

santhisouk

However much of a good person they may have been, if they commit that kind of an act, they are now in debt to themselves in the present human realm. So I don't see how they can reach heaven without finishing paying their debt first. That's just my opinion.

Yishai

I think the focus is on what Buddhism has to say about the suicide bomber, not Islam However, to answer that question. A female martyr will have only one husband in Jannah. She will be satisfied with him and will need no more. So says Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen. And it's 72 hoor al-‘iyn. But the Quran also states that all desires will be fulfilled in Jannah by Allah.

But does it make sense to apply Buddhism to Islam practitioners? Maybe this raises a broader question of: do Buddhist principles and morals apply to everyone, like the Christians seem to think theirs do? Will we rot in hell for not accepting Jesus as our saviour? Do we care?

To have religion/spirituality means you have an array of tools to use in determining the morality of actions. Each individual has his or her own moral compass to work with and the tools that his or her religion/spirituality give them (even atheists have a spirit of humanity). We, Buddhists, can say the act was negative because we can point to all the people that were hurt (we recognize the negativity and move on). We recognize suffering in all, no matter what they have done or who they are. We shouldn't seek to condemn others, for this only brings more suffering to others. Like I said, the only thing we can do is tackle the problem of the present. It does not help to focus on the suicide bomber, but the people who have been hurt by the action (the people who knew/cared for the bomber(if they're suffering) and the people who knew/cared for the victims). As Buddhists, we should not be looking to the past. We cannot afford to dwell on what has past, only what is in the now.

And frankly, I personally don't care that people think I'm going to rot in Hell. Although, if they're trying to convert me, I see that as an act of compassion. They are obviously caring about where I will end up post-mortem. I, on the other hand, prefer for people to see my actions, not my words. I can talk a good story for Buddhism, but who cares what you say you are and what you stand for. People will notice, however, when you go out of your way to extend a bit of compassion someone's way.

I tend to think a Buddhist's morals are more for self since we use the morality of actions only when we are forced to judge (for example, courtroom). Otherwise, we leave our judgments at the door and begin administering compassion

compassionate_warrior

I don't think the suicide bomber cares what Buddhists think, just like we don't care if the Christians think we're going to rot in hell. What "really" happens after someone's death, i.e. is there a soul, or seed consciousness, or karma that continues, we don't know with any certainty. Everyone has their own beliefs. What really happens is anyone's guess. Maybe death is the end of the road. You're buried, your body slowly rots into the earth. End of story. Or...not. Houdini said he'd find out and get back to us from the "beyond". Nobody's heard from him since he died. Personally, I tend to believe the reports of the NDE survivors.

aura

Certainly we all have to face the consequences of our actions...
And so we take pause and wonder just how many of our own actions and inactions could collectively have produced a world so harsh and inequitable and desperate and starving and uncaring...
that a child would learn such hopelessness, desperation, fear, and hatred
to grow up and become a suicide bomber.
No baby on this earth is born a suicide bomber!
We collectively built this hell.

Nirvana

When a solo terraanhilator acts he or she creates Hell and enters into it once and for all. Such a heinous act sets into being an unending moment of Hell. That is what I believe.

Life is what you make it. Your "world" is what you make it.

But some things are just unforgivable: For instance, yelling out to the bride at her wedding, "You're a bloody slut," or something of that nature. Some things are just irreversibly contemptible and unforgivable. Only some deep, impersonal wisdom can forgive all. But we have no way of knowing to whom such forgiveness may be offered.

aMatt

Such a heinous act sets into being an unending moment of Hell. That is what I believe.

Anicca? Compassion?

Its odd to see such judgements arise from your mind, Nirvana. When we let people's actions cultivate hatred in our mind, their suffering spreads and becomes our suffering. If we are incapable of forgiveness, even for suicide bombers, we're rooted in the same hell.

jll

Understanding the law of karma also means understanding why people would resort to such drastic measures. Why would a sane person blow himself up and kill people he does not know personally?

SherabDorje

Understanding the law of karma also means understanding why people would resort to such drastic measures.

No, it doesn't, not entirely. Again, the results of karma are considered to be imponderable in Buddhism. No one knows if "bad karma" caused this act, although many Buddhists might suppose that superficially. There are many factors that influence such an act, and it's probable that many of those are unknowable as well.

Again, karma is not a "this-for-that" form of punishment. It's much more complex than that and the results of karma, such as what happens and when, are imponderable in Buddhism. We will never fully understand the law of karma and we will probably never know fully why people resort to such drastic measures.

jll

I am not reffering to imponderable karma here. We can trace a series of events in a crime. How a person become a suicide bomber follows a series of event just like any other crime. What you need is a good investigator, not a Buddha to solve the crime.