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Jll comes here posting that we are all deluded and simply expects us to accept what he said is true because his teacher said so.
But when we disagree with the condemnation of his teacher, Jll says we are very attached to our opinions.
Jll said no such thing. Jll's teacher said no such thing. Jll offered a Jll's teacher's hypothetical situation for everyone's contemplation and discussion in the traditional manner.
Dhamma, I think you misread what the title of the post was supposed to be telling us. I took it to be refering to the teaching pointing out that "we" are all deluded to the extent we don't understand the emptiness of our perceptions. But really, it's nothing worth arguing about.
I'm not sure why people are talking about 'abandoning sense pleasure'. Sense pleasure is fine so long as you accept the impermanence of it. This is what I see as non-attachment, non-clinging, non-delusion. You can even contemplate impermanence in order to treasure it all the more, and because you're accepting impermanence, it's still non-attachment, non-clinging, non-delusion.
I can't say what Buddha said on this, but then I view Buddha as being to Buddhist psychology what Newton is to Newtonian physics, or what Darwin is to Darwinian evolution. Namely, a significant and profound pioneer, but not the final infallible word on the subject. I don't say this to offend, I just say it to say that that's my view, and therefore that quoting Buddha doesn't resolve the debate for me. I only go by reason and experience in terms of what works.
I'm not sure why people are talking about 'abandoning sense pleasure'.
....Newton is to Newtonian physics
Much like "what goes up must come down" is "sense pleasure is a cause of dissatisfaction". You can use impermanence and non-attachment to let go and observe the sense pleasure and dissatisfaction that arise and fade. No need to run away and hide, but they are connected. When you're done, fed up with the cycle,or otherwise disillusioned with the pattern... "abandon" and get off the ride. So to speak.
The water I drink today was someone else's spit yesterday. The urine I leave today will be your water in some tomorrow. What's the difference anyway? Our bodies are mostly made of water just passing though the whole world.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"We are stardust, we are golden"..... Is this delusion?
Sex in rape is not just sex. It's a forceful display of power against the victim in the most fundamental way. That's why in many wars rape of women and children is almost always sanctioned by the conquering government, like the Japanese raping the women in places they conquered, like Malaya, Singapore and the Philippines. And weaker prisoners are raped by the stronger ones.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
sex in a rape case and sex with a romantic partner are both just sex... but how would you react?
This is arrogant ignorance in the extreme. I personally find it horrifically offensive of you to bracket the two under the same banner.
sex in a rape case and sex with a romantic partner are both just sex... but how would you react?
This is arrogant ignorance in the extreme. I personally find it horrifically offensive of you to bracket the two under the same banner.
examine into yourself.... why do u react that way, what triggers it? why u hate my statement or me although I'm not attacking u directly. such questioning might be useful....
someone post something like grotesque eyesore in the internet.... and such stimuli can stirred me and affect me. how come?
I won’t even start explaining the difference between rape and making love. If you don’t see the difference; just keep away from both of them.
I think there’s a general remark to be made about the way to regard things which are “dukkha”. Sex is “dukkha” which means it is impermanent (and too often just short) and can not give us everlasting happiness.
We can grow over it in a sense. We can learn to put the whole thing into perspective. We can be free in the sense that we can handle our sexual emotions very well. That is good; and there is no need what so ever to turn sex into something which should be abandoned or looked down upon. It is the same for all our emotions and for all our hang-ups. We don’t become freed by rejecting and successfully suppressing things. We become free by putting them into perspective.
I think the koan is saying that there is no self-existent saliva with an inherent nature. There is only relationships.
I think the rape thing is just a faux paux (however thats spelled). Its like saying that during murder and petting fuzzy kitties both people are made of atoms.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
sex in a rape case and sex with a romantic partner are both just sex... but how would you react?
This is arrogant ignorance in the extreme. I personally find it horrifically offensive of you to bracket the two under the same banner.
examine into yourself.... why do u react that way, what triggers it? why u hate my statement or me although I'm not attacking u directly. such questioning might be useful....
someone post something like grotesque eyesore in the internet.... and such stimuli can stirred me and affect me. how come?
what others are trying to explain is that within the vast majority of rape cases, rape has nothing to do with sexual gratification, rather, it is about power and domination. therefore, the example is a poor one. people do not rape for sexual gratification. ask yourself if a normal sexual desire could drive you to rape someone. i would hope the answer is no, so clearly, there is more to it.
Comments
Jll's teacher said no such thing.
Jll offered a Jll's teacher's hypothetical situation for everyone's contemplation and discussion in the traditional manner.
I can't say what Buddha said on this, but then I view Buddha as being to Buddhist psychology what Newton is to Newtonian physics, or what Darwin is to Darwinian evolution. Namely, a significant and profound pioneer, but not the final infallible word on the subject. I don't say this to offend, I just say it to say that that's my view, and therefore that quoting Buddha doesn't resolve the debate for me. I only go by reason and experience in terms of what works.
Is this delusion?
sex in a rape case and sex with a romantic partner are both just sex... but how would you react?
I personally find it horrifically offensive of you to bracket the two under the same banner.
why do u react that way, what triggers it?
why u hate my statement or me although I'm not attacking u directly.
such questioning might be useful....
someone post something like grotesque eyesore in the internet.... and such stimuli can stirred me and affect me. how come?
If you don’t see the difference; just keep away from both of them.
I think there’s a general remark to be made about the way to regard things which are “dukkha”.
Sex is “dukkha” which means it is impermanent (and too often just short) and can not give us everlasting happiness.
We can grow over it in a sense. We can learn to put the whole thing into perspective. We can be free in the sense that we can handle our sexual emotions very well.
That is good; and there is no need what so ever to turn sex into something which should be abandoned or looked down upon.
It is the same for all our emotions and for all our hang-ups. We don’t become freed by rejecting and successfully suppressing things. We become free by putting them into perspective.
I think the rape thing is just a faux paux (however thats spelled). Its like saying that during murder and petting fuzzy kitties both people are made of atoms.