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I think you've hit the nail on the head there Jerry - re-reading the post BEFORE you hit the reply button. I see what The Rev is saying though - if you have posted it once, you could let it stand, write an apology if necessary but leave it there.
And I used to be the world's fastest on the reply button - bash it out, stick it up - but for some reason recently mature reflection has taken over - It must be my mainlining hot milk therapy taking over.
You can't mainline hot milk. It's osmotically unstable and would cause the cells in your body to rupture and...........oh, you were kidding. Joke time. LOL!
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Jerry - re-reading the post BEFORE you hit the reply button. I see what The Rev is saying though - if you have posted it once, you could let it stand, write an apology if necessary but leave it there.
And I used to be the world's fastest on the reply button - bash it out, stick it up - but for some reason recently mature reflection has taken over - It must be my mainlining hot milk therapy taking over.
I think in some ways I've gone in the opposite direction lately. At the moment for example I'm being lectured on right speech, because I dared to confront someone in a Yahoo group for Buddhist chaplains and state that I think the idea that Buddhist chaplains are there to change others is the height of arrogance. I also suggested that the proposal that chaplains study at university for 4 years is complete bollocks. I expect that sooner or later the academics in that group (all American) will finally figure out what that word means and lecture me on that too.
Well you, Rev Sir, have been practicing Right Speech much longer than me, I still have to work very hard at it because I am not known as Motor Mouth in some circles for nothing.
But just sometimes I think the only solution would be to read this forum with my mouth taped and boxing gloves on!
Universities could not function without "academic freedom". In this respect there are no rules—nor should rules be instituted. There is no analogy between the demands of academic freedom and traffic lights.
I have been on Buddhist bulletin boards when only those in the university could access them. Yes, I had a UNIX Eagle account. Academic freedom was operative in those early forums. From Buddhism to Hegel there were no active moderators or rules. One also used their own name.
But those times changed with the proliferation of cheap computers. People who then came to Buddhist boards had no sense of academic decorum. These people then used Buddhist forums for various reasons rather than discuss the recondite points of Buddhism. Many were simply spoilers who were not sincere Buddhists; who liked to start flame wars, etc.
Presently, Buddhist bulletin boards are heavily moderated. Whole threads are removed when a moderator's fur get ruffled in a dispute. Suspensions are in force and outright banishment. This serves, not the interests of academic freedom, but the interest of emotionally disturbed members of a Net community who chose not to engage with ideas.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
* MUJAKU:
It has already been made more than clear to you that ideas, philosophies, teachings and experiences do not offend here. What does offend, is the disrespectful timbre of posts, the arrogant tone inferred, the belittling and ridiculing of the integrity of others, and the flagrant disregard for repeated requests to remain civil, polite and respectful. It's not a question of what is expounded, it's the manners with which it is done.
You have already received emphatic requests to comply with the simple social niceties anybody would be required to conform to, no matter where you would be.
Do you intend to comply with these requests or not? *
Universities could not function without "academic freedom". In this respect there are no rules—nor should rules be instituted. There is no analogy between the demands of academic freedom and traffic lights.
I have been on Buddhist bulletin boards when only those in the university could access them. Yes, I had a UNIX Eagle account. Academic freedom was operative in those early forums. From Buddhism to Hegel there were no active moderators or rules. One also used their own name.
But those times changed with the proliferation of cheap computers. People who then came to Buddhist boards had no sense of academic decorum. These people then used Buddhist forums for various reasons rather than discuss the recondite points of Buddhism. Many were simply spoilers who were not sincere Buddhists; who liked to start flame wars, etc.
Presently, Buddhist bulletin boards are heavily moderated. Whole threads are removed when a moderator's fur get ruffled in a dispute. Suspensions are in force and outright banishment. This serves, not the interests of academic freedom, but the interest of emotionally disturbed members of a Net community who chose not to engage with ideas.
I think that the phenomenon which you are witnessing is pretty general in Academe at the moment, Mu. Pressures from both "sponsors" and government are returning us to the bad old days of the '50s. Academic freedom is even more illusory today that it has ever been, although I do see parallels with the 'reformed' universities of Edward VI's time.
When I matriculated, the Vice-Chancellor told us, in terms, that we were at Oxford "in pursuit of truth". He urged us to question and test everything we were told, whoever it was telling us. We heard the same message from the pulpit in the Catholic Chaplaincy and Blackfriars. Today, the message is : work for the bottom line, don't make waves, do anything for "tenure".
Presently, Buddhist bulletin boards are heavily moderated. Whole threads are removed when a moderator's fur get ruffled in a dispute. Suspensions are in force and outright banishment. This serves, not the interests of academic freedom, but the interest of emotionally disturbed members of a Net community who chose not to engage with ideas.
This is where you continually let yourself down. This statement is a sweeping generalisation! Your assertion that this serves only emotionally disturbed members is offensive, intolerant and frankly without substance or foundation. I believe that eventually you will be banned. If you believe from a viewpoint of total conviction that which you expouse, why would you put your ability to 'Spread' your knowledge at risk? This indicates to me that it is more important to you to be insulting than instructive. You have an abrasive and uncompromising style, which could be potentially acceptable if it was also interspersed with the occasional display of humour, modesty, courtesy and restraint. You are either unwilling or unable to conform with any degree of Site etiquette.
LOL, I can empathize, I'm the last person to talk about right speech, that's one thing I continually fail at.
Yes, but I believe that realization comes in many forms.
Realizing where and what we are failing at are the first steps to overcoming. The inability to recognize where and what we fail at dooms us to continue doing it.
Yes, but I believe that realization comes in many forms.
Realizing where and what we are failing at are the first steps to overcoming. The inability to recognize where and what we fail at dooms us to continue doing it.
-bf
You're sooooooo right there BF - someone very bright once told me that the more he knew, the more he realised he didn't know. (Took me a few minutes to work that one out) and he was right.
But on the plus side - don't beat yourself up for being a big mouth - you have some wonderful qualities too - we all do. Ahhhhhh sentimental old big hug!
i support the idea that we should have rules of conduct here,freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom of harrasing,flaming,hurting other people, if you want to do this i think this site is not suitable for you.of course we should give some tolerance to a certain extent,but if he/she wont listen or wont change the attitude,please dont blame the moderator for taking the action,like what has happened to someone,i believe federica has given him a light touch first,but maybe he doesnt understand the soft tolerance buddhist way,he only understands hard 'buddha's palm kung fu style' way.
i support the idea that we should have rules of conduct here,freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom of harrasing,flaming,hurting other people, if you want to do this i think this site is not suitable for you.of course we should give some tolerance to a certain extent,but if he/she wont listen or wont change the attitude,please dont blame the moderator for taking the action,like what has happened to someone,i believe federica has given him a light touch first,but maybe he doesnt understand the soft tolerance buddhist way,he only understands hard 'buddha's palm kung fu style' way.
Don't know if this helps, but at one of the equestrian forums I frequent, the difference between "heat" and "flames" was described in their rules as follows:
Heat vs. Flames:
Remember you are posting in a public forum with over 10,000 participants and there is a chance someone is going to disagree with you at some point. A heated discussion can be a very good source of knowledge and insight. Just don't let it turn into a 'tack room brawl' forum. Remember, address the issue being discussed, not the person. If you feel your response warrants your "donning of a flame suit", then you are most likely involved in a discussion that you shouldn't be. Agree to disagree about the issue and move on.
Thank you, Matt. What I've found interesting about the net is how many people think it is perfectly okay to be rude. I've always used basic courtesy as a rule of thumb. Sure, everyone gets mad every once in a while and says something they might regret later. I don't understand people who get on the net and start giving other people a hard time. I've left chat rooms I've participated in permanently for that kind of behavior. So now I know.
Thank you, Matt. What I've found interesting about the net is how many people think it is perfectly okay to be rude. I've always used basic courtesy as a rule of thumb. Sure, everyone gets mad every once in a while and says something they might regret later. I don't understand people who get on the net and start giving other people a hard time. I've left chat rooms I've participated in permanently for that kind of behavior. So now I know.
Hey all,
JB its probably an easy way to get out all the aggression stored without getting punched in the nose.....and its easier and less exspenisve than finding a Gym???????
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
It may well be, Esau... but you then have to consider the consequences of Harsh Speech, and the karma you generate for yourself aand others in that situation. Given that communicating via fora is such a tricky business in the first place (who exactly are you talking to? Who exactly will read this? today? next week?) our duty as people engaged in such a Russian-Roulette-style means of communication is to not permit the rsponsibility of our responses to end with the click of the "post" button....
It may well be, Esau... but you then have to consider the consequences of Harsh Speech, and the karma you generate for yourself aand others in that situation. Given that communicating via fora is such a tricky business in the first place (who exactly are you talking to? Who exactly will read this? today? next week?) our duty as people engaged in such a Russian-Roulette-style means of communication is to not permit the rsponsibility of our responses to end with the click of the "post" button....
Hello all,
I quite agree with you Fede, but then I take it that people who are hell bent on using this medium to de-stress and have their say regardless of who it will effect and to what degree are not entirely worried about consquences/karma and hesitating when it comes to actually sending the post. The emotional drive is pushing at the brain to be let out and in that moment people tend to give in to the emotions/situation rather than the alternative of keeping it all in check.
Personally I have had a long hard road in learning this.....its soooo easy to make it all about me!!!!! Oh and its MY two cents no one elses!!!!! Mine, mine, mine, alllllll MINE!!!!!AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
None who are confused .... what? Where's the verb? You gotta have a verb. None is the subject, confused is the adjective, who is the relative pronoun in this case ... the "are " refers to the adjective ... so where's the verb?
Sorry, not only confused but been teaching today ... still in the loop!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
....and should it not be 'None who IS confused..' because 'none' is in this case an abbreviation of 'no-one'...? I think you may find I'm right....!
Depends - none is usually considered as a plural when it means the uncountable and no one as a singular, rather as in tous le monde being third person singular when it means a plural but monde is singular.
Stop it, you're encouraging me
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Is there much demand for teachers of 'Advanced Broom Handling' ?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
Kow,
Actually, you'd be amazed....The trouble is, as with all very young, highly-inexperienced reckless and know-it-all-passed-my-test drivers, they've only got to see a broomstick and they think they're Michael Schumacher....!
Is there much demand for teachers of 'Advanced Broom Handling' ?
Not really - which is why I have to moonlight as a boring old English teacher .... I had my Teaching Cert in Broomstick handling revoked for organising jousting between juniors!
I remember a David Macaulay book, Motel of the Mysteries, where he had future archaeologists digging up a motel site. They saw everything through the lenses of the sacred. For instance, a toilet-seat cover was seen as a special "collar" used by the spiritual aspirant, and a credit card as a "portable shrine." http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/authors/macaulay/
When I come online, I guess I see my illuminated Macintosh screen as a link to the Light, and so I guess I think I'm communicating with people of light. I know sometimes I may be interpreted in "dark" ways, but that is certainly not my intent. I suspect I see my Mac screen, more or less, as a shrine-like thing, meant to connect me to something magical and neat.
You all are Neat!
Confusion alone exists; none who are confused. --kowtaaia
I have always thought this was a nice story and one that seemed most applicable to trolls in discussion forums:
A Gift of Insults
There once lived a great warrior. Though quite old, he still was able to defeat any challenger. His reputation extended far and wide throughout the land and many students gathered to study under him.
One day an infamous young warrior arrived at the village. He was determined to be the first man to defeat the great master. Along with his strength, he had an uncanny ability to spot and exploit any weakness in an opponent. He would wait for his opponent to make the first move, thus revealing a weakness, and then would strike with merciless force and lightning speed. No one had ever lasted with him in a match beyond the first move.
Much against the advice of his concerned students, the old master gladly accepted the young warrior's challenge. As the two squared off for battle, the young warrior began to hurl insults at the old master. He threw dirt and spit in his face. For hours he verbally assaulted him with every curse and insult known to mankind. But the old warrior merely stood there motionless and calm. Finally, the young warrior exhausted himself. Knowing he was defeated, he left feeling shamed.
Somewhat disappointed that he did not fight the insolent youth, the students gathered around the old master and questioned him. "How could you endure such an indignity? How did you drive him away?"
"If someone comes to give you a gift and you do not receive it," the master replied, "to whom does the gift belong?"
Originally, I wasn't worried about having any rules set in stone, but there is at least one rule I would adivse us to adopt. I propose that links should be included with all quotes that are taken from sources online, as well as referencing where you have taken quotes from if they are from printed material and/or from a particular talk. It is not only for convenience purposes, but legal ones as well. Even if it is not officially adopted as a "rule", I urge everyone to still do it. Please give it some very serious consideration.
Thank you.
Jason
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Unless it's just a single line or two committed to memory years ago.
Another point, one that Federica has brought up, too, the idea of noble silence. It's so darned unattractive for people to be arguing points into the ground. Ultimately, it's just a matter of people not being able to listen to any thoughts but their own. In this respect I rather like Palzang's signature: Don't believe everything you think! (It gets to the point where one simply stops looking at what certain people are saying.)
Make your point, respond in order to clarify it, then LIGHTEN UP. I shall do my best. Don't believe everything you think!!! ---
Comments
And I used to be the world's fastest on the reply button - bash it out, stick it up - but for some reason recently mature reflection has taken over - It must be my mainlining hot milk therapy taking over.
I think in some ways I've gone in the opposite direction lately. At the moment for example I'm being lectured on right speech, because I dared to confront someone in a Yahoo group for Buddhist chaplains and state that I think the idea that Buddhist chaplains are there to change others is the height of arrogance. I also suggested that the proposal that chaplains study at university for 4 years is complete bollocks. I expect that sooner or later the academics in that group (all American) will finally figure out what that word means and lecture me on that too.
But just sometimes I think the only solution would be to read this forum with my mouth taped and boxing gloves on!
I have been on Buddhist bulletin boards when only those in the university could access them. Yes, I had a UNIX Eagle account. Academic freedom was operative in those early forums. From Buddhism to Hegel there were no active moderators or rules. One also used their own name.
But those times changed with the proliferation of cheap computers. People who then came to Buddhist boards had no sense of academic decorum. These people then used Buddhist forums for various reasons rather than discuss the recondite points of Buddhism. Many were simply spoilers who were not sincere Buddhists; who liked to start flame wars, etc.
Presently, Buddhist bulletin boards are heavily moderated. Whole threads are removed when a moderator's fur get ruffled in a dispute. Suspensions are in force and outright banishment. This serves, not the interests of academic freedom, but the interest of emotionally disturbed members of a Net community who chose not to engage with ideas.
It has already been made more than clear to you that ideas, philosophies, teachings and experiences do not offend here. What does offend, is the disrespectful timbre of posts, the arrogant tone inferred, the belittling and ridiculing of the integrity of others, and the flagrant disregard for repeated requests to remain civil, polite and respectful. It's not a question of what is expounded, it's the manners with which it is done.
You have already received emphatic requests to comply with the simple social niceties anybody would be required to conform to, no matter where you would be.
Do you intend to comply with these requests or not? *
I think that the phenomenon which you are witnessing is pretty general in Academe at the moment, Mu. Pressures from both "sponsors" and government are returning us to the bad old days of the '50s. Academic freedom is even more illusory today that it has ever been, although I do see parallels with the 'reformed' universities of Edward VI's time.
When I matriculated, the Vice-Chancellor told us, in terms, that we were at Oxford "in pursuit of truth". He urged us to question and test everything we were told, whoever it was telling us. We heard the same message from the pulpit in the Catholic Chaplaincy and Blackfriars. Today, the message is : work for the bottom line, don't make waves, do anything for "tenure".
This is where you continually let yourself down. This statement is a sweeping generalisation! Your assertion that this serves only emotionally disturbed members is offensive, intolerant and frankly without substance or foundation. I believe that eventually you will be banned. If you believe from a viewpoint of total conviction that which you expouse, why would you put your ability to 'Spread' your knowledge at risk? This indicates to me that it is more important to you to be insulting than instructive. You have an abrasive and uncompromising style, which could be potentially acceptable if it was also interspersed with the occasional display of humour, modesty, courtesy and restraint. You are either unwilling or unable to conform with any degree of Site etiquette.
Yes, but I believe that realization comes in many forms.
Realizing where and what we are failing at are the first steps to overcoming. The inability to recognize where and what we fail at dooms us to continue doing it.
-bf
Most "freedom" is an illusion.
There is "freedom" for some and "subjugatiion" for others...
-bf
You're sooooooo right there BF - someone very bright once told me that the more he knew, the more he realised he didn't know. (Took me a few minutes to work that one out) and he was right.
But on the plus side - don't beat yourself up for being a big mouth - you have some wonderful qualities too - we all do. Ahhhhhh sentimental old big hug!
Angulimala,
I liked your post so much I posted it again!
JB its probably an easy way to get out all the aggression stored without getting punched in the nose.....and its easier and less exspenisve than finding a Gym???????
I quite agree with you Fede, but then I take it that people who are hell bent on using this medium to de-stress and have their say regardless of who it will effect and to what degree are not entirely worried about consquences/karma and hesitating when it comes to actually sending the post. The emotional drive is pushing at the brain to be let out and in that moment people tend to give in to the emotions/situation rather than the alternative of keeping it all in check.
Personally I have had a long hard road in learning this.....its soooo easy to make it all about me!!!!! Oh and its MY two cents no one elses!!!!! Mine, mine, mine, alllllll MINE!!!!!AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
regards,
X
So I'll just smile and log out for tonight. :wavey: Au revoir!
True but then, "confusion is the beginning of wisdom."
Wow.
If confusion could only directly equate to wisdom, I'd be wise beyond my years.
-bf
Sorry, not only confused but been teaching today ... still in the loop!
Stop it, you're encouraging me
Is there much demand for teachers of 'Advanced Broom Handling' ?
Actually, you'd be amazed....The trouble is, as with all very young, highly-inexperienced reckless and know-it-all-passed-my-test drivers, they've only got to see a broomstick and they think they're Michael Schumacher....!
I saw a course for that taught by Dick Van Dyke.
"chim-chim-enee, chim, chim-enee, chim-chim, chur-ee!"
-bf
When I come online, I guess I see my illuminated Macintosh screen as a link to the Light, and so I guess I think I'm communicating with people of light. I know sometimes I may be interpreted in "dark" ways, but that is certainly not my intent. I suspect I see my Mac screen, more or less, as a shrine-like thing, meant to connect me to something magical and neat.
You all are Neat!
--kowtaaia
Every troll's worst nightmare is to be ignored.
Originally, I wasn't worried about having any rules set in stone, but there is at least one rule I would adivse us to adopt. I propose that links should be included with all quotes that are taken from sources online, as well as referencing where you have taken quotes from if they are from printed material and/or from a particular talk. It is not only for convenience purposes, but legal ones as well. Even if it is not officially adopted as a "rule", I urge everyone to still do it. Please give it some very serious consideration.
Thank you.
Jason
I thank you!
Another point, one that Federica has brought up, too, the idea of noble silence. It's so darned unattractive for people to be arguing points into the ground. Ultimately, it's just a matter of people not being able to listen to any thoughts but their own. In this respect I rather like Palzang's signature: Don't believe everything you think! (It gets to the point where one simply stops looking at what certain people are saying.)
Make your point, respond in order to clarify it, then LIGHTEN UP. I shall do my best. Don't believe everything you think!!!
---
My apologizes. I must have overlooked that one. In that case, I strongly second what you said waaaayyy back in post #2.
Jason