Jason!!!!! Help!!!!!

buddhafoot

So, I was reading through Elohim's post on the thread After Death that Brian closed - and I had some questions that someone might be able to answer.....

Dependent Co-arising

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

Now, I'm okay with the requisite condition for aging and death being birth. I'm also cool with becoming being a requisite condition for birth. But how is "clinging" a requisite condition for becoming!?!?!?!

This sutta makes it sound like we have clinging before our "becoming" and eventual birth!?!?!!?

I'm going to go read the rest of this thread, but this one has me kind of stumped.

-bf

muzz

buddhafoot wrote:

Now, I'm okay with the requisite condition for aging and death being birth. I'm also cool with becoming being a requisite condition for birth. But how is "clinging" a requisite condition for becoming!?!?!?!

This sutta makes it sound like we have clinging before our "becoming" and eventual birth!?!?!!?

I'm going to go read the rest of this thread, but this one has me kind of stumped.

-bf

Hi,

The reincarnation version is that the clinging happens in a previous life, because of craving for existence. The enlightened person has abandoned craving and thus clinging, and has freed himself from birth and death and will not be reborn.

The alternative is to see 'birth' as a birth of the ego within this life, which happens constantly. Giving up clinging will give the possibility of dissolving this ego, because there will not be 'rebirth'.

more about this here:
http://www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/

hope this helps a bit..

Jason

buddhafoot,

Pali words often hold a great deal of meaning. When they are translated into English they don't always reflect their original depth. Without knowing exactly what the Buddha was referring to when he used certain words can obscure just what he was expounding upon. Perhaps the definitions of the words themselves with help to shine some light onto your question. If you still have any questions, please feel free to ask them and I will answer as best as I can [when time permits].

upadana: Clinging; attachment; ][some use addiction] sustenance for becoming and birth — attachment to sensuality, to views, to precepts and practices, and to theories of the self.

bhava: Becoming. States of being that develop first in the mind and can then be experienced as internal worlds and/or as worlds on an external level. There are three levels of becoming: on the sensual level, the level of form, and the level of formlessness.

Jason