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Oh boy the good ole' scapegoat, the Kalamma sutta. I don't plan on getting into that at all since no doubt it will derail this thread completely. I don't have anything against what you want to believe in, but you should understand why Buddhists believe what they do if you have any interest in how Buddhism can lead to the CESSATION of suffering.
If you don't believe that it might be possible, then you're definitely never going to get it, even if it is possible. If you don't definitely know for yourself, then it would be unwise to come to conclusions that it isn't IMO.
If you do not take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha how could you say that you are Buddhist? That doesn't make any sense. If you don't believe that the Buddha attained complete, self-attained, perfect enlightenment, thus severing all bonds to rebirth and Dukkha, then good for you, but that is what taking refuge in the Buddha means.
If you feel satisfied picking and choosing what you want to believe because you don't have the strength of conviciton to commit yourself wholeheatedly to the monumental task of achieving enlightenment, then that's your poragative. The reason that there are monks who suffer is because everyone suffers. How many of the monks you have met are Arhats?
When you disrespect or slander the 3 jewels you disrespect and slander many devoted and faithful and compassionate Buddhist practitioners the world over. Are you the type of person who likes to throw it in Christians face that there is no God just to boost your own ego and put them down? Maybe you should re-evaluate your understanding of the Dharma and think before you start bashing thousands of years of contemplation and study by people wiser and more intelligent than you.
Big words. A bit over the top maybe?
Zenmyste shared his/her thoughts. Thanks for that.
Hey im all for practising buddhism. I do follow the 8 fold path myself. i just dont personally think it ends all suffering. (it helps yes)
what do you mean by 'it' here?
Buddhism?
or
Noble Eightfold Path?
if you are with Noble Eightfold Path you do not suffer
if you are away from it you DO suffer
next time, when you face something that 'you do not like' (which is suffering) bring up your Mindfulness that "this will too pass" (anicca, dukka, anatta)
which means you are with Noble Eightfold Path
and
see whether you are still suffering
then decide whether there is possibility to END suffering by practicing the 'Noble Eightfold Path to the full extent'
I would just like to point out a subtlety that seems to be rather important when discussing suffering. The buddha didn't ever say that life was suffering. He actually said that suffering exists and it arises from attachment. I have a habit of playing the semantics card, but this time, I think it makes a difference.
If you say that life is suffering, then to escape suffering you would have to escape life. I would hope that we (buddhists) can all agreed that death isn't an escape from suffering. In reality, suffering is a result of attachment and not life itself. This leaves the possibility that while living you can end suffering.
It is probably also important to note that just as with life, death is also not mentioned in what is or isn't suffering. This points to the fact (as far as we know) that no matter what you do to try and escape suffering, there is only one general path: Admit you suffer; Admit you suffer because of attachments; Figure out how to get rid of attachments and get rid of all of them. The buddha said that it didn't matter how you got there, as long as you got there. The virtues help keep the mind clear for wisdom and give you a "better" life in which to pursue the "no goal." I think the 8 fold path is fantastic, especially in how it is interconnected in a manner like the brain. There is a beauty to the path, a simplicity that can be understood by anyone willing to be given a gentle push. So perfect that It can even be self-discovered/taught (as with the case of the many past buddhas). I think this ability to self-discover is that to what buddha-nature is referring. Even as I write this I can't but help see how flat the words seem in comparison to just the experience of it traveling the path.
What this says about the ordinariness of enlightenment, I don't know. I guess that it is ordinary and extraordinary and neither ordinary nor extraordinary etc.
And as always, if I am wrong or vague in some way, let me know so I can learn.
"especially in how it is interconnected in a manner like the brain."
interesting post. I agree that life is not suffering. I am tired and stressed from unbalanced day at computer. but interesting night too. not ready for bed yet.
Uninteresting and commonplace are used often in terms of enlightenment to describe what is often seen as the ordinary and natural state of 'what already is.' 'What already is' does not equate to how we see the world or even think about it. What already is- exists in spite of anything! When we can bring awareness to 'what already is' without any form of intellectualization we will feel results. Feeling into your own body to sense the real you will make you laugh, what a joke, all this searching and this mind babble...... we already are 'what already is' and that is... cosmic consciousness the very formless fabric of the universe.
There is a quote I like that says that the only thing that will never change is change itself. The buddha himself if he was still alive would probably tell you that himself. Actually I think he said something like that in his teachings when he was old and near death.
The Tathagata's Nirvana is where it is recognised that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself; is where, recognising the nature of the self-mind, one no longer cherishes the dualisms of discrimination; is where there is no more thirst nor grasping; is where there is no more attachment to external things. Nirvana is where the thinking-mind with all its discriminations, attachments, aversions and egoism is forever put away; is where logical measures, as they are seen to be inert, are no longer seized upon; is where even the notion of truth is treated with indifference because of its causing bewilderment; is where, getting rid of the four propositions, there is insight into the abode of Reality. Nirvana is where the twofold passions have subsided and the twofold hindrances are cleared away and the twofold egolessness is patiently accepted; is where, by the attainment of the "turning-about" in the deepest seat of consciousness, self-realisation of Noble Wisdom is fully entered into,--that is the Nirvana of the Tathagatas.
Ah, good old Joshu and the koan of the ordinary mind.
If I may break into an interesting conversation, of course Enlightenment is Ordinary, meaning every one of us has the potential to walk through the door opened by the Dharma. If it was extraordinary, then only extraordinary, special people would be capable of freeing themselves of Samsara. No! Ordinary, nothing-special people like you and me have it just as easy and just as hard as the ancient monk who spent a life in meditation. It is your delusions of specialness applied to Enlightenment that block you from seeing it's already part of who you are. So we say Enlightenment is Nothing Special.
So enlightenment is ordinary, nothing special. Immediately people say, "If it's my ordinary mind, then I'm already enlightened and don't have to do anything, right?" All I can say is, show me your ordinary mind and I'll tell you if it is enlightened. Ordinary minds are capable of great compassion or great cruelty. If someone delights in killing their perceived enemy, we don't say "Oh, that person has achieved Evilhood! What an extraordinary achievement! That person is special." No, we see an ordinary mind at work. Why is it so hard, then, to comprehend that enlightenment is just an ordinary mind also at work, free from the defilements of selfish desire?
Ah, but from Joshu we have this famous exchange: Joshu asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”
“Ordinary mind is the Way,” Nansen replied.
“Shall I try to seek after it?” Joshu asked.
“If you try for it, you will become separated from it,” responded Nansen.
“How can I know the Way unless I try for it?” persisted Joshu.
I will not give you Nansen's answer, because it won't help. If you say enlightenment is ordinary, I will say show me your enlightenment, then. If you say enlightenment is special, I will say, then are you special? If not, why are you seeking the impossible?"
The Tathagata's Nirvana is where it is recognised that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself; is where, recognising the nature of the self-mind, one no longer cherishes the dualisms of discrimination; is where there is no more thirst nor grasping; is where there is no more attachment to external things. Nirvana is where the thinking-mind with all its discriminations, attachments, aversions and egoism is forever put away; is where logical measures, as they are seen to be inert, are no longer seized upon; is where even the notion of truth is treated with indifference because of its causing bewilderment; is where, getting rid of the four propositions, there is insight into the abode of Reality. Nirvana is where the twofold passions have subsided and the twofold hindrances are cleared away and the twofold egolessness is patiently accepted; is where, by the attainment of the "turning-about" in the deepest seat of consciousness, self-realisation of Noble Wisdom is fully entered into,--that is the Nirvana of the Tathagatas.
tmottes said: If you say that life is suffering, then to escape suffering you would have to escape life. I would hope that we (buddhists) can all agreed that death isn't an escape from suffering. In reality, suffering is a result of attachment and not life itself. This leaves the possibility that while living you can end suffering.
Semantically speaking - the only possibility while living is to "practice" the end of suffering. Training for this realization and achieving it are the same yet very different. Death is the great equalizer - the achievement of "enlightenment" - returning to light - to emptiness. Whether Theravadin or Mahayana thought are invoked - death is the dissolution of everything one has come to know while living - including Dharma lessons! Dharma may be ultimate truth but it is merely a crutch (alright, a raft!) to help those in the know hobble (right, float to the other side!) through this existence morally - to the benefit of self and others - and depart honorably - with the dignity of the "practitioner" - with an "enlightened" view of death being life and unworthy of the fear with which it is imbued. How much more ordinary can elightenment get?
Well,
caznamyawcaznamyaw said: We are obscured by delusion and if living in samsara is enlightenment its pretty shit.
Sorry but those who think enlightenment is ordinary or mundane are pretty lost in their understanding. Ive heard there are some people who ascribe Buddha as having still suffered from delusion as well but this is a great flaw in their understanding of what enlightenment is and proof of the non validity of their practice. Perhapes it would be good if people made the effort to do as they did at Nalanda and trace the lineage of their teachings so they can determine wether or not such a lineage of accomplishment and understanding is actually from the Buddha himself or just Adharmic phenomena.
Caz, apology accepted - judging others as lost in understanding - as involved in non-valid practice - as possessing flawed understanding are all perfect examples of an Adharmic approach to compassionate loving kindness. Thanks for the lesson! BTW - you are forgiven......
Caz, apology accepted - judging others as lost in understanding - as involved in non-valid practice - as possessing flawed understanding are all perfect examples of an Adharmic approach to compassionate loving kindness. Thanks for the lesson! BTW - you are forgiven......
There is something called right view and right understanding and I see a lack of right view and understanding concerning the concept of enlightenment among some. trying to discern the correct nature of phenomena is not something to be apologised for compassionate loving kindness has its place and is always universally cherished but what is not cherished is wrong view and view that is neither found in Sutra or Tantra.
A huge part of actual enlightenment is the burning up of one's karma. It is this freedom from one's karma which removes one from the cycle of rebirth.
In an analogy of a wheel, the wheel is constantly spinning. We spin along with it, wherever it goes, however it spins. When it hits a bump, we hit a bump. That is karma.
One difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment is who or what is moving that wheel. When we are a part of the cycle, and it changes us, then we are not enlightened. When we are the axle of the wheel, and we allow our buddha-nature to turn the wheel, that is when we can realize the buddha-nature, the oneness of all things, the cycles in all things.
Normally we cannot see this because were are busy rolling along in our wheel. We see everything as relative to the motion of our own wheel. When we are in the axle, we have completely detached ourselves from that wheel, and become the mover. It is then that we can see other buddha-natures, and their ability to do the same.
Enlightenment isn't ordinary. Charlatanism is ordinary. Many people can talk enlightenment by regurgitating words they have heard, by learning the language of the sages. But talking about the center of the wheel is much different than being in the center of the wheel. One's thoughts, words, and deeds must be the axle, you cannot have one part that is not the axle and be enlightened.
Also, part of this process is submission to one's buddha-nature. Without that submission, we are attached to our own personalities - our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Until that submission and the sub-sequential annihilation of the sense of self, enlightenment is not complete. Many people attain one or more siddhis, or they cultivate a sense of love within themselves, and project it outward and call it enlightened. This is simply not the case, and it is not full enlightenment.
Until the buddha-nature completely takes over one's thoughts, words, and deeds, and until the karma is burned completely up, one is still within the thralls of samsara.
Enlightenment could be viewed as the ordinary state of ones self stripped free of 'mind analysis and dualism of thought'. Yes the word 'ordinary' may seem strange but should not imply that enlightenment it is not 'wonderful' or special' for a human who is trapped in analysis to be free of the ego it is amazingly liberating and love filled. The 'ordinary' some have spoken about simply means that which endures 'always' as the natural state of our true consciousness.... i.e. what we feel when our amazingly complex minds stop analyzing looking into the past or dreaming about the future. ( unfortunately this thinking happens to be very difficult to humans to get out of..... fortunately many teachers years ago had a long hitting stick that helped!!! ))
Comments
A bit over the top maybe?
Zenmyste shared his/her thoughts. Thanks for that.
Buddhism?
or
Noble Eightfold Path?
if you are with Noble Eightfold Path you do not suffer
if you are away from it you DO suffer
next time, when you face something that 'you do not like' (which is suffering) bring up your Mindfulness that "this will too pass" (anicca, dukka, anatta)
which means you are with Noble Eightfold Path
and
see whether you are still suffering
then decide whether there is possibility to END suffering by practicing the 'Noble Eightfold Path to the full extent'
If you say that life is suffering, then to escape suffering you would have to escape life. I would hope that we (buddhists) can all agreed that death isn't an escape from suffering. In reality, suffering is a result of attachment and not life itself. This leaves the possibility that while living you can end suffering.
It is probably also important to note that just as with life, death is also not mentioned in what is or isn't suffering. This points to the fact (as far as we know) that no matter what you do to try and escape suffering, there is only one general path: Admit you suffer; Admit you suffer because of attachments; Figure out how to get rid of attachments and get rid of all of them. The buddha said that it didn't matter how you got there, as long as you got there. The virtues help keep the mind clear for wisdom and give you a "better" life in which to pursue the "no goal." I think the 8 fold path is fantastic, especially in how it is interconnected in a manner like the brain. There is a beauty to the path, a simplicity that can be understood by anyone willing to be given a gentle push. So perfect that It can even be self-discovered/taught (as with the case of the many past buddhas). I think this ability to self-discover is that to what buddha-nature is referring. Even as I write this I can't but help see how flat the words seem in comparison to just the experience of it traveling the path.
What this says about the ordinariness of enlightenment, I don't know. I guess that it is ordinary and extraordinary and neither ordinary nor extraordinary etc.
And as always, if I am wrong or vague in some way, let me know so I can learn.
interesting post. I agree that life is not suffering. I am tired and stressed from unbalanced day at computer. but interesting night too. not ready for bed yet.
- Lord Buddha
Lankavatara Sutra
_/\_
If I may break into an interesting conversation, of course Enlightenment is Ordinary, meaning every one of us has the potential to walk through the door opened by the Dharma. If it was extraordinary, then only extraordinary, special people would be capable of freeing themselves of Samsara. No! Ordinary, nothing-special people like you and me have it just as easy and just as hard as the ancient monk who spent a life in meditation. It is your delusions of specialness applied to Enlightenment that block you from seeing it's already part of who you are. So we say Enlightenment is Nothing Special.
So enlightenment is ordinary, nothing special. Immediately people say, "If it's my ordinary mind, then I'm already enlightened and don't have to do anything, right?" All I can say is, show me your ordinary mind and I'll tell you if it is enlightened. Ordinary minds are capable of great compassion or great cruelty. If someone delights in killing their perceived enemy, we don't say "Oh, that person has achieved Evilhood! What an extraordinary achievement! That person is special." No, we see an ordinary mind at work. Why is it so hard, then, to comprehend that enlightenment is just an ordinary mind also at work, free from the defilements of selfish desire?
Ah, but from Joshu we have this famous exchange:
Joshu asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”
“Ordinary mind is the Way,” Nansen replied.
“Shall I try to seek after it?” Joshu asked.
“If you try for it, you will become separated from it,” responded Nansen.
“How can I know the Way unless I try for it?” persisted Joshu.
I will not give you Nansen's answer, because it won't help. If you say enlightenment is ordinary, I will say show me your enlightenment, then. If you say enlightenment is special, I will say, then are you special? If not, why are you seeking the impossible?"
Semantically speaking - the only possibility while living is to "practice" the end of suffering. Training for this realization and achieving it are the same yet very different. Death is the great equalizer - the achievement of "enlightenment" - returning to light - to emptiness. Whether Theravadin or Mahayana thought are invoked - death is the dissolution of everything one has come to know while living - including Dharma lessons! Dharma may be ultimate truth but it is merely a crutch (alright, a raft!) to help those in the know hobble (right, float to the other side!) through this existence morally - to the benefit of self and others - and depart honorably - with the dignity of the "practitioner" - with an "enlightened" view of death being life and unworthy of the fear with which it is imbued. How much more ordinary can elightenment get?
Well,
caznamyawcaznamyaw said: We are obscured by delusion and if living in samsara is enlightenment its pretty shit.
The penultimate of ordinary - shite!
"You can't polish a turd."
In an analogy of a wheel, the wheel is constantly spinning. We spin along with it, wherever it goes, however it spins. When it hits a bump, we hit a bump. That is karma.
One difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment is who or what is moving that wheel. When we are a part of the cycle, and it changes us, then we are not enlightened. When we are the axle of the wheel, and we allow our buddha-nature to turn the wheel, that is when we can realize the buddha-nature, the oneness of all things, the cycles in all things.
Normally we cannot see this because were are busy rolling along in our wheel. We see everything as relative to the motion of our own wheel. When we are in the axle, we have completely detached ourselves from that wheel, and become the mover. It is then that we can see other buddha-natures, and their ability to do the same.
Enlightenment isn't ordinary. Charlatanism is ordinary. Many people can talk enlightenment by regurgitating words they have heard, by learning the language of the sages. But talking about the center of the wheel is much different than being in the center of the wheel. One's thoughts, words, and deeds must be the axle, you cannot have one part that is not the axle and be enlightened.
Also, part of this process is submission to one's buddha-nature. Without that submission, we are attached to our own personalities - our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Until that submission and the sub-sequential annihilation of the sense of self, enlightenment is not complete. Many people attain one or more siddhis, or they cultivate a sense of love within themselves, and project it outward and call it enlightened. This is simply not the case, and it is not full enlightenment.
Until the buddha-nature completely takes over one's thoughts, words, and deeds, and until the karma is burned completely up, one is still within the thralls of samsara.