Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
How important is sangha?
Hi, I am new to this forum and just beginning to explore the dharma, having been meditating at home for around 4-5 months. I live in a fairly small town, and the only Buddhist group available has been one run by a representative of a nearby Triratna buddhist centre, and I have been studying their introductory course with a small group. While I have found the material useful, it does seem to put A LOT of emphasis on the sangha and on spiritual friendships, in a way that makes me feel slightly uncomfortable (I have good friends, some spiritual, some not, but all bring happiness to my life in different ways).
I just wonder how much importance others attach to the sangha? Am I missing something here? Or am I deluded to consider that I can walk this path without the benefit of a close knit sangha?
Thanks for anything people can share.
I just wonder how much importance others attach to the sangha? Am I missing something here? Or am I deluded to consider that I can walk this path without the benefit of a close knit sangha?
Thanks for anything people can share.
0
Comments
Its common to wonder that! In the west, we hear so much dogmatic pressing to align with the church, hearing the importance of the sangha can feel cultish and uncomfortable.
We usually consider a sangha one of the three jewels that lead to liberation. When missing one of the three legs of a stool, it is difficult to stay balanced. It isn't so important that we go to the temple and meditate with monks, but that we recognize how motivating and assuring it is to be surrounded by people practicing with us. How a community of fellow friends and honest reflections can stabilize our minds.
If you don't feel like going to the buddhist center, for any reason, you could consider reaching out to some of your friends and have a meditative gathering, dharma based book club, or something like that in which you help each other feel supported in your practice. That's really what the sangha is about, strength in community. Not "joining the herd".
Also, welcome!
With warmth,
Matt
Prince Siddhartha didnt attend a sangha. and he still attained enlightenment, sitting all by himself under a tree!
You might be interested in ZEN. Zen masters have said that ZEN is what buddhism was really like 2500 years ago without all this added commentry we hear these days telling us we need this, we need that...(Buddha tried ALOT of things and nothing worked until one day he decided to JUST SIT...And thats when enlightenment came. This is ZEN..Just sit...
Also, @zenmyste the sangha is a very important part of zen practice. The 3 jewels are a universal Buddhist teaching.
Whos says that Buddha is the only one who didnt need a sangha. And that there is only 1 samma-sambuddasa in the world at any time. Even if buddha himself said this, did he? we dont know we wernt there 2500 years ago.
Im more intersted in things that can help me TODAY. right now in THIS life time.
Thats why i like the 8 fold path because i agree with it and i try to practice it. But then i might also like something that *I* came up with or what Plato or socrates came up with and so on...
I believe (aswell as zen) that any of us can achieve enlightenment at any moment.
Buddha was just a teacher. (a great teacher) And its not important what happened back then or whether he ended the cycle of rebirth etc etc, what matters is that his teachings like 8 fold path are pretty cool and make sense.
But i belive (also like zen) that we have to eventually find our *own* path.
You sound like a hardcore Buddhist follower. And congrats to you.
I really hope you achieve something on the buddhists path. But i do feel that being fully commited to ONE path could stop one from seeing *their* own path, the path which would lead you to your real self.
It is said: And in regards to "my path," I find it borderline insulting to assert that because I devote myself to studying that which I find to be the truth, that which I find to be virtuous, that which I find to be liberating and insightful is not "finding my own path." The Buddha is my guide, the Dharma the map of the territory, the Sangha my fellow travelers. The path I walk is my own, because I am the one the who walks it.
In my opinion, rejecting tradition, authority, or time-tested beliefs on the basis of maintaining "individuality" is clinging. Specifically it is clinging to rites and rituals and the doctrine of self. You cling to your notions of individuality and persistant abiding identity, which closes you off to the grander themes of Buddhist doctrine and belief. Sometimes we must sacrifice this concept of "my path" in order to discover "THE PATH."
how can you say 'rejecting traditions, authority etc etc is clinging..
Its completely visa versa. Holding on to Buddhist belief is clinging. But buddhists have got a good way to justify it.
I dont believe that 'we have to sacrifice this concept of 'my' path in order to discover THE PATH because you HAVE to discover your path. its your life. Your not living buddhas. You will one day have to find your own truth. And when you do, that will be the true enlightenment.
Whilst you believe that only one Buddha is here at one time, will always stop you from becoming fully enlightened. Whilst you belive that buddhas path is the ONLY path you will in fact miss your path. Buddhas path is buddhas path. accept that and move on. take what you need, as buddha taught the dharma to us but he did also say 'one day you will have to walk your own path, i am just a teacher, i can only guide you'
I do respect your words though. So please dont get offensive because that would also be clinging and not letting go. just accept my opinions and ill accept yours.
You say you havent even met a buddhist. well i have spent months in thailand with buddhist monks in the past, been on retreats, etc etc, and i have heard different stories from different monks.Some agree with what i am saying whilst others swear by buddhas teachings. Its whatever works for you. However all im saying is one day we all have to see our own truth and we wont be able to see it whilst we are so hooked on someone elses path...
@ Talisman - I am interested that you have never met another Buddhist in real life. Do you consider online contacts here to be part of the "sangha"? Are we honouring the sangha part of the Three Jewels if we are reading and learning from more spiritually advanced people without necessarily having to meet them?
A follower of the Way does not turn away from the Three Treasures (Buddha, Dharma, Sanga) but rather cultivates and encourages taking refuge in them.
"To practice Zen Buddhism properly, one must: (1) sit regularly, (2) practice under the guidance of a teacher, and (3) connect with and practice with a group. There is no way around this." ~Zen Master Nonin Chowaney, Abbot of Nebraska Zen Center/Heartland Temple and the Head of the Order of the Prairie Wind
My contact with the Sangha is through study of translated texts and commentaries. I am planning a trip to chicago soon to visit a soto zen center. I'm really excited about it. Keep in mind, that many westerners have this idea of zen being some kind of iconoclast, structure-to-the-wind, freespririt kind of tradition.
In reality zen is a very disciplined school of Buddhist practice, if not one of the strictest, especially because of its heavy focus on meditation. It is a mahayana tradition and was founded on the teachings of the Lankavatara sutra. Like other mahayana traditions it adheres to the concepts of the Boddhisatva path, the Paramitas, the Tathagatagharba, and in some zen traditions even the recitation of Amitabha Buddha is a common practice, not to mention classic Buddhist teachings such as the precepts, the 8-fold path, dependent origination, and the meditative absorptions.
Ethics, study, and discipline are necessary for any effective meditation excersize, so you shouldn't let people give you the idea that "just going with it" or "just live life" are concepts endorsed by zen. If "just living life" were enough to end your suffering then you wouldn't need to seek liberation at all.
Oh who says so??? "To practice zen properly one must....."
Please stop stop stop...you MUST do nothing. Real Buddhism and especially zen are not some strict thing we have to follow with rules, its getting really stupid now..real zen is follwoing the heart.
Buddha followed his heart and left his son, wife friends and then his teachers, he then sat under a tree until enlightenment hit him.he gained truth by doing NOTHING but sitting and sussed out the middle way.
Forget all this "we NEED to do this, one MUST do this"
Its getting really old now!! Its all added comentry.
Just sit and be...whatever u are, be a good one! End of story!
Good luck on ur path x
Intuition is a mental formation. Mental formations give rise to consciousness gives rise to name+form gives rise to the 6 sense media give rise to contact gives rise to sensation gives rise to craving gives rise to clinging gives rise to becoming gives rise to birth gives rise to old age and death.
Reliance on intuition leads to many unskillful actions. Instead one should rely on that which leads to liberating insight. Intuition (formations) are not SELF. They are not mine, they are not abiding, they are impermanent, they are conditioned, they are subject to change, they are Dukkha, disatisfying.
Our brains largely work without making use of conscious processes. And if we practice mindfulness, we supply them with the best possible data. We simply absorb what is here and now like sponges, not distorting the information with our words, concepts and preferences. The brain can make decisions, with great speed and precision, without conscious processes interfering. We just have to learn to listen to those decisions and we have to learn to trust them.
what? :wtf:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The brain goes fast? Instict and intuition are mental fabrications. There is no fast or slow. Fabrications arise dependent upon ignorance. As long as there is ignorance, there are fabrications. The concept of something occuring in time is itself a fabrication. Fabrication -> old age and death
I think you’re into Therevada. Right?
Trusting intuition is more a Zen thing.
Buddhist practices have been passed down and refined (especially by China) for 2500 years. Don't follow the wrong mind and ignore these old practices.
So you are probably thinking 'where is a yogic path substantiated in the sutras?' Meanwhile I have been thinking 'how are the sutras consistent with what I find in my yogic experience based path?'
To Whom It May Concern: Intuition is non-sectarian. It's just part of life. It can be an important resource.
How do you know he just "sat and sussed out the middle way"? Were you there? I suppose the only way you could have knowledge of this is if it were passed down through history by the Sanga.
You know, I really do admire your tenacity, and ability think outside of the box. But, you certainly do seem like the most disheveled person posting on these threads. If you have truly found something worth spreading, then you aren't doing it any favors with your posts. I would suggest a more compassionate approach to your comments
But I digress.
Sure, the Sanga isn't necessary for enlightenment, but it also isn't wise to practice without guidance. I bet you can agree with that statement, Zenmyste. But, I think what Snoozerider really wants to know here is how much "faith" to put into the Sanga. The answer is none, the Sanga is just as fallible as government, but also just as necessary. Without the Sanga we lose our traditions. Without the ability to make our own decisions about what the Sanga says, we lose our selves.
Metta,
Mr. Fell
It is normal that different opinions will make you feel uncomfortable. Truly, it is impossible to make any changes to your life, positive or negative, without feeling some discomfort. Discomfort is not something to fear. However, after the initial discomfort of something new has worn off, if you still feel a lingering discomfort, that is a sign that something is wrong.
It is unclear from your post exactly how long you have been with this sangha. The fact that they want a closer connection with you than you are willing to give them at this time is not really unusual. I would wait and see if you are able to make this closer bond with the people around you. I don't think that a desire for a person to be close to you is in any way "cultishness". "Cultishness" comes into play when someone is aggressive about being separated from you.
Sangha didn't accidentally get listed as one of the Three Treasures. It is fundamental to being a Buddhist. However, it should not be used as a way to exploit someone. As always, self-examination is very important. You should take the Buddha's recommendations to heart, and make the decision that is best for you.
I just thought that the appreciation for spontaneous actions and decisions and the idea that there could be some wisdom in trusting our intuition were kind of Zen/Taoist really.
And it would be hard to persuade people who have no affinity with Zen into practicing Wu Wei (non-doing).
But of course it’s a general human capacity.
You ask 'how do I know buddha just sat....etc'
But this is what I'm always trying to point out that none of us know what happened 2500 years ago. I always state this. That why the best thing one can do is follow their heart. The answers are already within us!!
But when I say the buddha just sat, I honestly believe he did.
As it works for me! Just sittin and being is the best practice I've ever done! Sure, I visit my local sangha once every blue moon, mainly just to say 'hi, and see how everyone is! Perhaps a cup of tea and a little chat, see if anyone has any news or experineces they would like to share. But I don't NEED them for my practice.
I meditate, I write, I read, I'm living my own life, my own practice.
I do believe I have come up with few answers that work for *me*
I'm very happy and doing well, and my point is I'm not commited to one sangha!!!
I'm one of those people who believe we don't NEED buddhism to attain enlightenment...just like buddha didn't need buddhism to attain enlightenment!
The most important thing we need is our true self.
Clear mind and clear heart! And I often find some people are more brainwashed with what they read,and believe,instead of listening to their inner heart!
They feel they need to something to belong to, or commit to or believe in instead of having faith within themselves
Anyway, just my opinion! Good luck on your paths!! X
SN 45.2
Got it. Thank you
Most people on here wont understand or agree with what you have just said.But the monk is right. Temples, sanghas, books, paintings, statues etc etc have nothing to do with real buddhism and practice. The real sangha is between you,the heart and mind..x
I do not think attending a Sangha is a strict necessity, but it has helped me.
In metta,
Raven
And besides, isn't this forum a sangha?
Same here! I also believe, in addition to what I said in the last post, that as time goes on and Buddhism becomes more fundamental to who I am, I will probably naturally be drawn to other Buddhists anyway. The ones at the local Buddhist centre certainly seem very cool.
I feel like my sangha meetings are a form of group therapy in a way. In the tradition I follow, we listen to each other mindfully and try to refrain from judgment. We speak about experiences rather than theories, and ask each other for practical insight. We are free to share what ever we want as long as it pertains to our practice. I always feel good after a sangha meeting.
I have only been practicing Buddhism for five or six months myself, and I find that sangha really has helped to strengthen my practice. Fellowship is important to any religion, I think. Simply being around like-minded individuals and sensing (even if it may not be true in all cases) that you are unconditionally accepted is very powerful stuff.