The Bodhisattva path and the 8

shanyin

Oh boy I articulated my question to myself a while ago now I have to try to do it again.

It is clear the suttras claim the Buddha and his disciples preached and taught the eightfold path, that leads to enlightenment. I have also read some that say there were some that went to listen to Him who He called Bodhisattvas.

I think I can sum it up:

The Buddha taught the eightfold path, which leads to 'peace, discernment, enlightenment, and nirvana. 'Stream entry'. which leads to Arahat-ship.

I have also come read that once one enters the stream, there is the enivitable leaving of the cycle of rebirths.

So a bodhisattva must not be concentrated/on the eightfold path? Because then he would just become a stream enterer... leaving the cycle of rebirths within 7 life times. That's a sort of different direction that the Bodhisattva wants to go.. ? You know... staying in samsara for a longer while.

Yeah that's basically the question. For now .


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Interested in seeing a reply from Dhamma Dhattu.

Be well.

Dazzle

Hi Shanyin,

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not DD!

As far as the Bodhisattva Path is concerned, according to a commentary for Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, the 1st Bodhisattva level (bhumi) called 'Supreme Joy' is equivalent to Stream Enterer in Theravada.

However, I don't really see how labelling of this kind has any relevance to my practice in the here and now.

with kind wishes to you,

D.

caz

The difference between Bodhisattva's and Arhants is simple...Bodhichitta it is this mind that allows Bodhisattvas to enter into samsara many times to be of benefit to people where as one following the path of a stream winner will not generate this mind and thus when both eliminate the defilements and attain liberation the Arhant will not again be reborn in samsara but through the force of Bodhichitta the Bodhisattva will remain and be of benefit to sentient beings wherever they are needed.

Dazzle

The difference between Bodhisattva's and Arhants is simple...Bodhichitta it is this mind that allows Bodhisattvas to enter into samsara many times to be of benefit to people where as one following the path of a stream winner will not generate this mind.....

The notion of bodhisattvas being reborn to benefit all sentient beings is a later addition to the teachings of the Buddha.

I've noticed on the internet that occasionally this idea appears to give Mahayana people feelings of superiority over the 'Hinayana' Theravadins whom they mistakenly assume have purely selfish aims (because that's what they're told)

However, from my own offline experience of the 2 traditions, its an extremely misguided and inaccurate concept.

caz

The difference between Bodhisattva's and Arhants is simple...Bodhichitta it is this mind that allows Bodhisattvas to enter into samsara many times to be of benefit to people where as one following the path of a stream winner will not generate this mind.....

The notion of bodhisattvas being reborn to benefit all sentient beings is a later addition to the teachings of the Buddha.

I've noticed on the internet that occasionally this idea appears to give Mahayana people feelings of superiority over the 'Hinayana' Theravadins whom they mistakenly assume have purely selfish aims (because that's what they're told)

However, from my own offline experience of the 2 traditions, its an extremely misguided and inaccurate concept.

Debatable as has previously been said all the teachings where oral tradition for hundreds of years we all take them on faith and experience to some degree. So what is the aim of one on the arhant path then ? do they come back to benefit others or not ? if not then why make a fuss over what is accurate anyone who treads the path out of Samsara is certainly an extraordinary being as to what their intention are however is something for ones individual capacity.

shanyin

Well then it sounds like there's no reason to have hard feelings over this topic, both have good points and I agree.

Does the Theravadin school not teach the Bodhisattva path/ideal? Isn't the Theravadin school based on the earliest known scirptueres, the Pali suttas?

andyrobyn

Hi caz ,

as with much of what causes difficulties in communication, and I find this especially so online, it is the tone and intent of the way concepts are discussed. The Bodhisattva path and vows are all about the intention of taking them ... for me it is confirmed faith and understanding in how the path keeps me moving forward. Making those promises/vows to myself ( however I am actually able and perceive that I keep to them moment to moment - I can always keep trying and start again ). It is not about comparing and having a sense of superiority over other traditions and practices ..... our individual capacity for a particular approach is not a moral issue in my understanding, from my experience.

Temporary_arising

Forgetting different sects for a moment, look at it practically.
Nirvana is a state of no mind, where you abide in thoughtless direct experience. To communicate takes conceptual thought, and a dualistic sense of self and other, so takes you away from nirvana. A bodhisatva stays in the mundane world to help liberate others, hence isn't in nirvana which can only exist in solitude or non communication.

Temporary_arising

Technically, buddha would have also been a bodhisatva.

andyrobyn

My understanding is that our interconnectedness is what the Bodhisattva seeks to remain focussed on - moment to moment.

Jeffrey

Dazzle in light of the Ghandari scrolls discovery it is possible that buddhism was diverse even in buddha's time. My household is diverse, is yours?

caz

Hi caz ,

as with much of what causes difficulties in communication, and I find this especially so online, it is the tone and intent of the way concepts are discussed. The Bodhisattva path and vows are all about the intention of taking them ... for me it is confirmed faith and understanding in how the path keeps me moving forward. Making those promises/vows to myself ( however I am actually able and perceive that I keep to them moment to moment - I can always keep trying and start again ). It is not about comparing and having a sense of superiority over other traditions and practices ..... our individual capacity for a particular approach is not a moral issue in my understanding, from my experience.

Agree

caz

Forgetting different sects for a moment, look at it practically.
Nirvana is a state of no mind, where you abide in thoughtless direct experience. To communicate takes conceptual thought, and a dualistic sense of self and other, so takes you away from nirvana. A bodhisatva stays in the mundane world to help liberate others, hence isn't in nirvana which can only exist in solitude or non communication.

Rubbish Nivarna isnt a state of no thought if this was so an inanimate object has nivarna. Bodhisattva's have certainly attained Liberation or Nivarna which is having cut the defilements that lead to uncontrolled samsaric rebirth and death and such stemming sufferings, Again it is through the force of Bodhichitta that they make the commitment to appear in samsara and eminate multiple forms to benefit others.

caz

Well then it sounds like there's no reason to have hard feelings over this topic, both have good points and I agree.

Does the Theravadin school not teach the Bodhisattva path/ideal? Isn't the Theravadin school based on the earliest known scirptueres, the Pali suttas?

Both traditons have great value. To the best of my knowledge Theravadin schools do not teach the Bodhisattva path and having the earliest scriptures is something which people prefer to delude themselves on as the authenticity of such and such, When in actual fact unless it can be proven Buddha put ink to paper all we have is the words of someone else recorded hundreds of years after they where spoken by the Buddha. Again it depends how much faith you have in the accuracy of the transmissions and how well you put effort into realising their meaning. Besides due to recent discoveries the We possess the real Buddhism crowd will have to re-evaluate their beliefs against a very diverse looking tradition of Buddhism in the very early years as well.

Temporary_arising

@namyaw
That was a bit of a stupid statement. Inanimate objects don't have awareness. Nirvana is technically liberation from desire, and liberation from the illusion of duality. The result is non conceptual awareness.
I could easily quote scriptures to back this up, but they mean little to me so i won't bother.

pegembara

The bodhisatta concept is not exclusively Mahayanist.

In original Pali Buddhism, the term bodhisatta is used more or less exclusively to designate Gautama Buddha prior to his enlightenment.

"Monks, before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'This world, alas, has fallen into sore distress. There is being born, growing old, dying, passing over and being reborn. But from all this suffering, from decay and death, no way of release is apparent. Surely there must be some way of release discoverable from this suffering, this decay-and-death.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.010.wlsh.html

caz

@namyaw
That was a bit of a stupid statement. Inanimate objects don't have awareness. Nirvana is technically liberation from desire, and liberation from the illusion of duality. The result is non conceptual awareness.
I could easily quote scriptures to back this up, but they mean little to me so i won't bother.

If one considers Nivarna to literally be no mind and no arising of thought then what is the difference between that an something which possess no consciousness such as an inanimate object. Stupid statement in response to something which sounds equally as odd...No thought, no mind so much for Buddha's continually acting with the intention to benefit others then.

Temporary_arising

The difference is clearly awareness.
I won't presume anything as i have no idea of your level of realisation, but when you realise that consciousness has nothing to do with thought and bodily function, then all that's left is awareness, which can include awareness of thought if it arises. Buddha helping others was simply cause and effect. As is this conversation.