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neopaganism?
Talisman
Veteran
A friend of mine considers herself a "neopagan." She doesn't have any concrete beliefs at this time and is really just trying to figure thigns out for herself. We only recently met, and in our short time together I have tried to explain parts of Buddhism to her, because she has asked me about it. She claims, very adamantly, that because I am buddhist, that I am considered neopaganist.
I wasn't able to discuss it because I don't know much about "neopaganism." What is neopaganism? Is buddhist practice and belief related to neopaganism in any way?
I wasn't able to discuss it because I don't know much about "neopaganism." What is neopaganism? Is buddhist practice and belief related to neopaganism in any way?
0
Comments
@Prometheus
@aMatt
@Jeffery
Neopaganism seeks to preclude organized religion from their way of life and most of them are very eclectic and subscribe to gods and goddesses of different pantheons that have nothing in common, eg. Hecete the Crone Moon Goddess within the Greek Pantheon and Loki trickster god of the Norse. Many of them claim to be druids, yet know very little of what they are talking about. A vast amount of them are self proclaimed Wiccans and Witches. Also, some are the British Traditional Wiccas who are often trying to set the record strait with them by subscribing to their pantheons in secret, still, they are very involved in the neo-pagan movement.
FACT: Buddhism is not neo-pagan. The word neo means new. Buddhism is 2600 years of religious practice. Buddhist monks are neither stereotyped as bumpkins nor hics, which is basically what a the word pagan means, within that context.
IMO, it's all a very fluffy way of life. The neo-pagan movement is very insulting towards actual polytheist traditions who seek to preclude the word pagan all together.
My family has a long lineage of polytheists within it. None of them are pagan, wiccan, druid, witch or whatever other fluffiness that the neo-pagan movement identifies their selves as. We've had these talks with those of the Neo-pagan community before and they were very rude and snappy in their defensiveness. It would not be surprising if some random neo-pagan tried to convince a Buddhist that they are like them. Neo-pagans only are like their selves because they are the only kind to make it that way. My family will have non of it. This is agreeable to me.
However, good on them, none the less.
Deep Respects.
I tried explaining that Buddhism is not "neo" anything. That it's been around for 2500 years and she snapped at me, saying, "paganism has been around since the dawn of human history." I tried explaining a lot of Buddhist concepts and beliefs and although she seemed interested, she definitely didn't believe anything I was telling her. /shrug
Eeeeyup! Definitely not surprised.....
There are too many of them who are eccentric with audaciously and fundamentally flawed views. They are bold enough to speak about one's own origins and culture (what it is and what it is not). What's more? Too many, of "that way of life," tend to feel that they have a right to take from it and claim what serves them as their own. How? By incorporating it into their very unoriginal way of things hence "neo-paganism!" It's so rude. And they are raising their kids to think like this! ((-:
My presentation of view is coming off as that of such a rant. It is petty of me, but, it's honest. There is only so much of it that a witness with tolerate, before one witnesses more of it on a path of inquiry.
Namaste
Talisman, it sounds like your friend is more interested in trying to win a debate, rather than finding out what the truth is.
Talisman, it sounds like your friend is more interested in trying to win a debate, rather than finding out what the truth is.
I do know that many turn to Buddhism to fill in the gaps of their path (as with all reconstructions there are many gaps and ambiguities to be filled from other Indo-European practices), it would be a shame to turn them from the Dharma entirely through prejudice.
If your friend says you are, what ability do you have to change their mind. Ashes falling on Buddha comes to mind.
Most modern neo-pagans I have encountered, and I myself labelled ourselves as Neo-pagans for two seperate reasons.
1. Paganism is viewed by many as being against the established christian norms of western society --a de facto self-chosen contrary position. That is why Talisman's lady friend chose to adamantly lump buddhism in with her neopaganism. Christian society tends to consider buddhism outside the norm, and therefore by her ignorant perspective, buddhists and pagans are allies of a sort.
2. While they technically consider themselves neo-pagans due to a perception that original paganism was all but wiped out by the coming of christianity in western society, most pagans use the two terms interchangably.
As to the idea of a hodge podge of gods and goddesses, you are dealing with a largely unorganized group of individuals with beliefs as varied as can be imagined. While some are literal in their "crossover" beliefs, I myself used the hodge-podged deities more as avatars because of their acknowledged historical and mythical qualities than anything else. As a buddhist, I know there are some who use bodhisattvas in a similar fashion.
While I am no language expert, it is my understanding that even the very meaning of the word pagan is being taken out of context. As I understand it, pagan comes from the latin root word paganus, meaning country dweller, and therefore was probably used as a kind of insult implying that country folks are more uncouth and therefore less civilized.
I hope this helps.
Heathen traditions very, entirely. But, they are not pagan. Asatru will tell you themselves that they do not subscribe to the word pagan.
Organizations like ADF, were invented in the states and hardly any of them speak the language, let alone know for certain what actual gods the actual druids revered. Too little is actually known about them for one to claim themselves a druid, especially in the states.
Wiccans have whole lot to do with the neo-pagan community.
The common falsehood that is about Wiccans of the neo-pagan movement is that Wicca is “Ancient Paganism restored”. This is misleading and untrue. True Ancient POLYTHEISM centered around the Godhead and becomes the guard and guide over ones destiny. There was none of this “unconditional love, threefold law” tenant that Wicca preaches.
Moreover, many Wiccans still consult and show reverence to Christian figures such as “angels” or even the fictitious “virgin Mary”. They marry this in with elements of Polytheism, and it can easily be seen how illogical this is, as well as extremely harmful. They invite in all kinds of entities who are not who they say they are, and therefore invite in all kinds of personal disaster. Usually, this results in the person being frightened back into following Christianity anyway.
Wicca is not by any stretch of the imagination true Polytheism. True Ancient polytheism, is Spiritual.
Wiccans try to make the name Wicca synonymous with Heathen / Paganism - it is not! At best it is an eclectic form of 20th Century Neo-paganism pirating and pillaging from whatever spirituality they wish, mixing up spiritual frameworks that were never intended to work together. At worst it is not even Pagan or Heathen but mostly it is an eclectic mix of high magic, OTO rituals, masonic ritual, Jewish Kabala, Christian mysticism and New Age philosophy with a God and Goddess who are somehow ALL Gods and Goddesses thrown in to Paganise it.
In terms of the neo-pagan movement as a whole, they have wreaked havok & desecration to the spirituality of the North American Indians, Australian Aboriginals, Greco Romans, the Celts, the Babylonians, the Egyptians and many more. They descrate the content of the worlds religious and yet many have the gall to claim they have the RIGHT to do it.
And still have the gull to say "Namaste" when they are done.
As leading Wiccan priestesses and a very prolific writer Margot Adler rightly said "The most authentic and hallowed wiccan tradition is stealing from any source that didn't run away too fast." Thais can, not only be said about BTW covens, but be said about the neo-pagan community as a whole.
Besides, why seek allies to band against another religion anyway? The enlightenment in that is very cloudy and is a judgmental action in itself. Why not just let them revere their gods and leave it as that? Perhaps they should leave other religions alone.
Respectfully yours, @ZenBadger
Heathen traditions very, entirely. But, they are not pagan. Asatru will tell you themselves that they do not subscribe to the word pagan.
Organizations like ADF, were invented in the states and hardly any of them speak the language, let alone know for certain what actual gods the actual druids revered. Too little is actually known about them for one to claim themselves a druid, especially in the states.
Wiccans have a whole lot to do with the neo-pagan community.
[The common falsehood that is about Wiccans of the neo-pagan movement is that Wicca is “Ancient Paganism restored”. This is misleading and untrue. True Ancient POLYTHEISM centered around the Godhead and becomes the guard and guide over ones destiny. There was none of this “unconditional love, threefold law” tenant that Wicca preaches.
Moreover, many Wiccans still consult and show reverence to Christian figures such as “angels” or even the fictitious “virgin Mary”. They marry this in with elements of Polytheism, and it can easily be seen how illogical this is, as well as extremely harmful. They invite in all kinds of entities who are not who they say they are, and therefore invite in all kinds of personal disaster. Usually, this results in the person being frightened back into following Christianity anyway.
Wicca is not by any stretch of the imagination true Polytheism. True Ancient polytheism, is Spiritual.
Wiccans try to make the name Wicca synonymous with Heathen / Paganism - it is not! At best it is an eclectic form of 20th Century Neo-paganism pirating and pillaging from whatever spirituality they wish, mixing up spiritual frameworks that were never intended to work together. At worst it is not even Pagan or Heathen but mostly it is an eclectic mix of high magic, OTO rituals, masonic ritual, Jewish Kabala, Christian mysticism and New Age philosophy with a God and Goddess who are somehow ALL Gods and Goddesses thrown in to Paganise it.
In terms of the neo-pagan movement as a whole, they have wreaked havok & desecration to the spirituality of the North American Indians, Australian Aboriginals, Greco Romans, the Celts, the Babylonians, the Egyptians and many more. They descrate the content of the worlds religious and yet many have the gall to claim they have the RIGHT to do it.
And still have the gall to say "Namaste" when they are done.
As leading Wiccan priestesses and a very prolific writer Margot Adler rightly said "The most authentic and hallowed wiccan tradition is stealing from any source that didn't run away too fast." Thais can, not only be said about BTW covens, but be said about the neo-pagan community as a whole.]
Besides, why seek allies to band against another religion anyway? The enlightenment in that is very cloudy and is a judgmental action in itself. Why not just let them revere their gods and leave it as that? Perhaps they should leave other religions alone.
Respectfully yours, @ZenBadger
(Honestly, Krishnamurti was right!! Listen to my stupid, clinging mind, desperately searching for a way to come to terms with death! HAH! I swear, I'd follow Rush Limbaugh if I heard him say something I agreed with, in the right frame of mind, at the right time of day.)
This conversation is great. I needed it.
However, this is why Buddhism has my utmost respect. Like Neo Paganism and Wicca, both Traditional and Eclectic, it is a benign religion in the fact that is has no history of crusading for enlightenment. But, unlike the fluff above, it is a mindful religion of forbearance, compassion, and simplicity of being. It not only offends other religions it welcome its practices to be incorporated into them; all the while, abstaining from being offensive to other very true polytheist cultures.
Look! We are having this conversation right now without anyone being accused of trolling.
Thankfully, @Tealeaf and @Amelia:
SimpleWitness
*"it is not only non offensive" was being edited but didn't edit fully. Sorry.
I think we are talking about different countries here. In the UK Heathens, Asatruar, Vanatruar, Odinists and the like definitely do call themselves pagan. I sit in on an interfaith council from time to time and the Pagan Federation rep is a Heathen as are many of the local Pagan Federation members. Very few of the Druids I know date their tradition back before the eighteenth century and adapt it constantly as information becomes available from archaeology. There are a few "fluffies" on the fringe but then again there are many, many more "fluffies" on the fringe of Buddhism. As for Wiccans having anything to do with angels or the Virgin Mary, I asked a representative of the Pagan Fed and he said this was a highly offensive thing to say, Wiccans have nothing at all to do with Christianity.
The fact that this kind of slur is coming up on a Buddhist forum is extremely disappointing.
Perhaps.
Just curious, how did the neo-pagans "wreak havoc and desecration to the spirituality" of all those people/religions?
@ZenBadger
Agreed.
Much appreciated. Thank you.
@Tealeaf
@ZenBadger
Believe what you will of it. It bodes well to bow out.
Namaste
I believe what I have seen from my friends and colleagues of the Pagan faiths over the years and what I have learned through interaction with Pagans. No religions are universally accepted, even Buddhism has become anathema to many in this country, but we don't have the right to spread misinformation about another's religion. I think it would be a good idea for both of us to leave this thread lest it become a debate on the right for someone to follow their own particular religion.
@SimpleWitness, the key give away to Neo-Pagans is their almost Pythonesque "Don't you oppress me!" reaction to anything resembling research, facts or correction of their fluffbunny and often incorrect interpretations of pre-Christian religious practises. I was initiated into Gardnerian Wicca and quickly found myself drawn to Asatru because of the structure, historical evidence and support.
There ARE some really good Wiccans, Druids and the like out there, but they are usually the hidden minority, and often stay hidden by choice (can't blame them).
In metta,
Raven
Deep peace. You're cool.
;D
@dhammachick
Much gratitude, Raven.
Adharak ;D
Namaste