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Manhood?
Xrayman
Veteran
I have been amazed by so may people responding in-kind to some of my posts-everyone is really nice here (generally speaking). but I just have been recently thinking about occasions where behaving in a stupid macho etc. way has got in the way of real communication with others wives, husbands gf's bf's etc. (don't want to offend).
I recall a time when I watched Happy days where The Fonz couldn't say the "S-Word", Sorry. I've always found that amusing-but it also makes me uncomfortable because in some ways it is a little too close to home! How much longer will it be before society accepts that emotions are equally valid if they are possessed by males and females in equal amounts?
Now I consider myself pretty-well emotionally-correct -for a man, but I still behave with a stupid wierdo behaviour sometimes that corrupts effevctive communication, maybe even it is detrimental to my own health?
What do you all reckon?
Perhaps i'm just a woos! hahah
:canflag:
don't know why I put the canadian flag there but, oh well!
I recall a time when I watched Happy days where The Fonz couldn't say the "S-Word", Sorry. I've always found that amusing-but it also makes me uncomfortable because in some ways it is a little too close to home! How much longer will it be before society accepts that emotions are equally valid if they are possessed by males and females in equal amounts?
Now I consider myself pretty-well emotionally-correct -for a man, but I still behave with a stupid wierdo behaviour sometimes that corrupts effevctive communication, maybe even it is detrimental to my own health?
What do you all reckon?
Perhaps i'm just a woos! hahah
:canflag:
don't know why I put the canadian flag there but, oh well!
0
Comments
I found myself in a situation exactly like this the other day. I was chatting with my colleague, a woman I am very close with, and she was asking my opinion about something. The subject was a very arcane one about an academic matter related to the discipline she and I share. I'm sanitizing it to make it more understandable and to emphasize what I realized about what happened:
All of a sudden, my head must have expanded 3 sizes. I started a rant about this and that; I was quite empassioned about why she abso-friggin-lutely could NOT do this thing she asked me about. Very coolly, she turned her head and said, "Why don't you help me with what I can say rather than what I can't. I think that would be more helpful." It really shook me.
I had started down this path with a legitimate reason for the concern. Rather than simply stating the concern and discussing it with her, somehow machismo kicked in and my (so-called) 'authority' on the matter took over. Of course, I apologized profusely for making an arse of myself. I also helped her figure out a way to say what she asked me about in the first place.
When I start feeling comfortable with the things in my world, often this means that I've stopped being mindful. Sometimes I'm lucky enough to have others around me who can help me shake up my concept of myself. Usually, I have to rely on my own practice to notice. It usually involves saying something uncomfortable for me, like "sorry" or "what's your name again" or "I lied about that". That's much usually harder, but doable.
The truth shall set you free.
And, no, Xrayman. You're not a woos. (That word looks so FUNNY...)
I hope a lot of men respond to this post because I love it when guys get REALLY real. I've had way too many incidents of lousy communications with men who were wearing their "man" mask. No matter how real I got, they just couldn't take it off. It was maddening and saddening. After a while I just got tired of trying to cut through it. Maybe that's why I like it here so much.
Oh, great. I just posted TWICE.
Sorry.
Ditto to this!
Let's not forget - We ARE animals.
Look at the animal kingdom and how they sort it all out.
Generally speaking, the guys hunt, keep everyone under control and generally throw their testosteronic weight about. it's a control thing. They love it, it makes them look and feel good, and so long as others toe the line and know their place, all well and good.
the females hunt, discipline and generally look after the housework.
To take three species...
Lions, Gorillas and Horses.
In the case of Lions, the females generally hunt, and the men eat first. But them 'esses don't take any crap...
In the case of Horses, the stallions display and protect. But the mares kick ass and run the herd...
In the case of Gorillas, the big silverback... you don't want to mess with him....
But madam there, is quite easily capable of handing out a slap as much as he is.
In the case of human beings...
it's all one big mess.
Women have to do and behave 'Like a Man in a Man's World' in order to succeed.
Men have to 'get in touch with their 'Feminine Side'....
Sometimes, these are very good, appropriate and commendable things.
At other times, it's a disaster....
In the case of temperament and emotions, feelings and expression, it's generally good.
in the case of profession, business, career, work and social and public evolution - it doesn't always cut the mustard.
Having thrown that little firecracker into the ring....
"Touch blue lightpaper and stand well back".....!!
I think we need to beware of falling into believing the streotypes. Weren't they all broken by the arrival of Margaret Thatcher?
Seriously, tho'. The experience of mis-communication is, I submit, extremely important. It is the role of the court jester or the trickster god. It reminds us that communicating between humans is extremely complex and, unless we watch out, doomed to failure.
Male feelings of rage, frustration and despair are often overlooked because men are so poor at expressing them 'creatively'. Modern society does not give adolescent males a consecrated outlet for their testosterone poisoning: small wars, hunting predators, etc. The 'civilised' equivalents of skate-boarding and football do not appear to do the trick.
The women's movement and its associated therapeutic schools have taught men the value of expressing the 'soft' emotions. Perhaps it is now time, in an age of terror, rape, war and insurrection, to find ways of embracing and channelling the other, less socially-acceptable, emotions. Without the whole person present, no communication can be other than skewed.
This is how I feel about it. And I would like to point out that my girlfriend tells me that I am (sometimes) even too "chicky" for her. She tells me I think too much, that I'm too emotional and that I talk about things too much. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT!?!?!?! Anyway...
As Fede said - like it or not we are animals. Women are drawn to things in men that have been drawing them to men for millinea. The shape of a jaw, how far the eyes are set apart (and as much as I hate this) how well they will be able to provide for them. Men recognize a shoulder/breast to hip ratio that most of the time, they don't even recognize - but that specific "ratio" equates to bearing children and continuing their line.
All very unPC if you think about it. Especially in society today.
To paraphrase Simon a bit - in society today - all things estrogen are embraced like a loving mother. Whether it's in magazines, commercials, television. All things testosterone are charicatured, brutish, ridiculed, demeaned.
Just look at some of the commericals or sit-coms on television - there is the kind, all-knowing wife just waiting for her oaf a a husband to do the next stupid thing so that she can run to the rescue.
Being male has come to the point of, "Do I do this? Or do I not do it?" Do I open the door for a female? Or is that sexist? Do I pull back a chair? Do I open a car door? Do I pay for the entire meal? Or make her pay for her own?
I know women that beat on the drum of (gender) equality - but then get pissed off if they go on a date and the guy makes them go "dutch". Or hates it when a man she doesn't like makes a pass at her and it's disgusting and he's a pig. But, the guy that she does like, who isn't making a direct "pass" at her is being wishy-washy - because now this woman wants a "take charge" kind of guy.
I'm surprised men can even get it up in society anymore. It seems sometimes that women want to be men except when they want to be women. And they want men to be men, except when they want them to be more feminine. And it's the men that bear the brunt of all of this.
I love the partner that I'm with. She's a woman. She knows that. I'm a man - she recognizes this. It doesn't play into "who is equal with who" - we're both equal. But, she's a lady and likes to be treated as such. I (hope) think that I'm a gentleman and like to be treated as such. And you know what? She knows she's my "biatch" - and I love her for it
I don't know if I provided anyone with any insight into my madness - or if it's just me rambling and totally missing the topic at hand.
-bf
I was talking to my girlfriend this morning over coffee about something that has come up at her work. She does HR for a electronics/technology firm in town.
There is this woman - who my girlfriend says - dresses inappropriately, talks inappropriately to men and women, uses the company for her private sperm bank, etc. Not that that in itself is bad - because obviously, she's found willing partners. But, the way that she does it is by engaging with 2 or 3 men at the same time that don't know about it and think their relationship with her is more personal than she's been thinking.
Anyway, there is this older gentleman who has been sending emails back and forth to her for years. Some of the emails, as is typical, are not "work" material. But, they've recognized they do this with each other and respond in kind with each other.
One day, she sent him a graphic email - he chuckled and sent one back. She filed a sexual harassment suit against him - and he's being formally reprimanded for this. Even though he brought copies of emails she has sent to him which were as bad (or worse as my girlfriend told me) because she is a woman and she filed the complaint - they're taking her formal complaint much more seriously than his evidence that he didn't think he was really doing anything wrong. There were no passes. He wasn't trying to engage in her personally or sexually.
It's really pissing my girlfriend off because she doesn't think the guy did anything different than he's done for the last 5 years - and out of the two, the woman is always more vulgar and crude - but now he's being reprimanded because a woman has filed a complaint all of a sudden.
My girlfriend is having a very difficult time with this issue. The HR lines are clear - but she thinks the results stink.
-bf
Well, I really do think that we have along way to go before we achieve actual equality. But if this really starts to affect our "reproductive function" (I'm surprised men can even get it up in society anymore....as alluded to by BF!), then maybe it's all going awry!
I'd like to start a new thread-this has prompted me to tell you a story...
How old did you say you were? lol
Brigid
Nice posts thanks.
let me just expound some of my experience. At 14, it was reasonably okay to cry (for a guy), but at 38 (nearly 39-damn!) it's still seen as a little immature or weak. Yes and I really do dislike the facts of this, but our society (in the main) still likes to criticise and expect men to behave in a controlling/non-feeling way.
I can honestly say, that this is where most of my own issues lay-in the "wooden-male behaviour" of not letting people in and not having enough guts to speak to people honestly about something you like or dislike about them-I suppose it's a perpetuation of the whole problem-but I hope to be rid of "it" one day.
regards,
X
Didn't they try and explain human-male/female behavior in the book Brain Sex? The communication classes I have done will always tell you their are differences to the sexes and how males and females are "expected" to behave.
Sterotypical behavior always makes me:crazy: Judging people also by their biology/physiology and chemically driven behavior also makes me
Ahhhh, the days when men were men, women were women and small furry green creaters from Alpha Centory were small furry green creatures from Alpha Centory!!!!:bigclap:
I think it's fine for a man to cry - for anyone to cry - but I do think it's seen as a sign of weakness.
There was a window of about 10 years where it was okay to be a sensitive, pony-tail, emotion-man - but I don't think women dig men (too much) that spend their crime crying over their emotions.
I think if you do it once? You might amaze your partner - do it twice?
WUSS!
-bf
And for the record, BF, I think that sitaution at your girlfriends work is ridiculous! I sure hope things work out for that guy and that he does not get into trouble. My husband had someone at his office that acted like the girl at your girlfriend's office. She would wear the skimpiest clothes and come onto guys, and then go the the HR department once the guys flirted with her. She approached my husband several times, and he ignored her every single time and kept a record of everything! Luckily, the girl was fired.
I would have to agree that seeing a man cry in situations like the birth of a child, wedding day, etc. - I think women can cope with things like that.
But, what if he came home and started crying telling you "I just can't take work anymore! The guys at work have all been making fun of me and I don't feel like I get any support from my boss.. BOOOOO HOOOOOO! .... hold me!!!!!"
I think, eventually, you'd say, "Hey! Knock it off of I'm gonna have to open a 12 oz. can of whoopass on ya!"
As for the girlfriend - I don't know what happened with that. I know that the guy was being formally written up - but I don't know what happened. I'll have to get an update!
-bf
Maybe it's conditioning - he is of the generation that where men were taught not to show their emotions unless they were macho ones, so seeing him cry really jolts me. And funnily enough he can't bear to hear me crying (real crying) because I cry at the drop of a hat but there are different forms of crying - there is the weepy movie crying and there is the sobbing because I am hurt crying.
-bf
Don't ever go to Dr. Mengele for a circumcision...
-bf
You probably shouldn't tell too many people that.
-bf
Please don't get me started on the subject of....well you know.
I become enraged easily about the sh** that is done to children-for whatever "reason".
I'll calm down now.
regards,
X
LMAO, Yogamama! That was good.
BF,
You know, both you and Yogamama make really good points. And I guess this issue comes down to one of balance. I know what you mean, BF, when you say that a guy crying can become too much for a woman to take, especially the guy's romantic partner. Been there. But while I was there I couldn't help thinking that my problem was less about him and more about my own narrow view of manhood and lack of compassion. I think about that guy a lot and I alternately cringe at the memory of how I was, and comfort myself with how I became, over the course of that relationship. I got way more compassionate and understanding as we went along and now he's such a fond memory for me. He was one of my more challenging teachers and I feel grateful to him. He was also really hot....(sigh).
Brigid
I know what you mean, Xrayman. I am glad we had a girl so that I wouldn't have to deal with the issue of circumcision! I am somewhat joking, but that really was a concern of mine when I was pregnant. I did not want to do that if I had a boy!
I had my son circumcized - for good or bad - I did make that decision. It is still something very, very prevelant(sp?) in US society - and I didn't want him to "stick out" because of that.
But, I also have to admit, I couldn't watch. I saw them put him in that funky tub and strap him down - and he started wailing - I had to turn away. It made me sick.
Now that I think about it while writing this post - I think of the pain that I caused him and how easy it is for us to turn our backs on the pain of those that we force to conform to society or our ideas.
I still stand by my decision - but when I think of it in these terms, I'm not very pleased with myself.
-bf
Ah, so that explains everything! :eekblue:
Unfortunately
But isn't there a saying like, "laugh at yourself and the whole world laughs at you too!"?
-bf
Um, no, sorry...
And don't even getting me started on the decision of whether or not to vaccinate our kids!!
..... why have your sons circumcised at all?
Because who likes sticking out in regards to something like that?
I remember, in Junior High, there were two boys who weren't circumcized. I can still remember the ridicule they received from both boys and girls (once the girls found out) at a very difficult time in a persons life - Jr. High and High School.
Just like a woman that I was dating at one time - she had a daughter who was in High School and still hadn't developed breasts - when everyone else had. Very, very tough on her emotionally. But does she really need them? Well, since she's not breast-feeding - no, she doesn't need them.
I'm sure you can understand...
-bf
Can circumcision be done later in life? Or does it have to be done when the baby is born?
I once knew a guy (who was in his 50's at this time) who went in to get a circumcism. This was because his wife, of 12 years, was disgusted by the fact that he wasn't circumcized. I honestly can't understand why someone who supposedly loves you would find this as point of ridicule AND would have the callousness to tell you that something natural about your body disgusts them - but what do I know?
Anyway... he went in and got it done.
Not pleasant. He said the doctor told him it would be much more painful as an adult because of the whole erection issue.
Pee-pee's are quite tiny when you're a baby. Even when erect.
And did you know that men have between 5 and 8 erections a night? Just "because"? This is one way that they are able to tell, if a man suffering from erectile dysfunction, if the cause is physical or mental. If it's mental, they'll still have erections in their sleep.
Anway - the doc said that adult erections go through much more of a lengthening than baby erections. So, he had to keep wrapped up very tightly at night to make sure that the incisions didn't keep ripping open and bleeding and all that crap.
Anyway, he's not with that woman anymore. I don't think he ever got over the ridicule he received from her regarding that topic.
He also said, if he had to do over, he'd never have it done OR wanted it done as a baby.
-bf
I mean, it's an unecessary and painful procedure, and you're removing a component that presumabaly you're born with and require... It's there for a purpose - so why have it removed just because everyone else does?
There is no medical benefit to it. In fact, there is even evidence to suggest that removing the forsekin can exacerbate and instigate problems....why do that to your kids?
I find it really odd....I really am just incredulo-curious....and I promise i'm not attempting to criticise... It's just beyond me.....
I didn't think that you were criticizing or anything. I thought you were just asking questions. No harm done.
It is a custom that has been and is "acceptable" behavior. I agree with you completely. I'm not saying that I'm proud of having my son go through that - but I just think about how it may affect him at a later stage in his life.
I've also heard that by circumcizing a boy - you are removing a lot of area that contains various pleasure nerve endings that a male might enjoy. Almost like the ridiculousness of female circumcism - albeit, not as extreme.
Oddly enough, this practice is deemed acceptable to boys and inhumane for girls.
I don't know why it is - it just is. I have heard that, long ago, it might have been more cleanly - or provided a method of extra cleanliness. But, everybody's business gets a little.... odiferous(?) if ya don't take care of it.
I think the thing that bothered me the most was forcing my child to do this and not having the balls the watch it. Like I was turning my back on him.
But then, I can't watch people in pain. I can't even watch Dr. 90210 on television or those "trauma room" reality shows on TV.
I'm a wuss.
Is this mostly just an American custom anymore?
-bf
She'll have a goatee!
-bf
I still cry when I look at mine.
I cried when the doctor asked me if I wanted that "mole" removed.
Bastard!
-bf
I thought that NOT being circumcised caused issues with infections? Is that not true?