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Verbal/Emotional Abuse
If you don't identify with your ego than how can your "self-esteem" ever be hurt from abuse?
You might feel emotional/psychological pain, but there is no esteem of self to be hurt, no?
In another way, couldn't emotional/verbal abuse almost help in liberating oneself from the grips of ego?
I mean you still feel the pain physiologically, but there is no suffering of hurt self-esteem.
Who's self and who's esteem?
A receiver of abuse is pretty much a receptical for the emotional pain of another person who has been abused in the past.
Energy cannot be destroyed only passed on. There is no abuser nor abusee just humanity as a collective transmitting life's pain.
?????
You might feel emotional/psychological pain, but there is no esteem of self to be hurt, no?
In another way, couldn't emotional/verbal abuse almost help in liberating oneself from the grips of ego?
I mean you still feel the pain physiologically, but there is no suffering of hurt self-esteem.
Who's self and who's esteem?
A receiver of abuse is pretty much a receptical for the emotional pain of another person who has been abused in the past.
Energy cannot be destroyed only passed on. There is no abuser nor abusee just humanity as a collective transmitting life's pain.
?????
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Comments
I might go and meditate on that one...
Ego....still learning....l am still stuck on the Freud ego, havent got to the page on Buddhism ego theory!! i am getting there!
The interesting thing about these "ego-destroying" practices is that the lamas think they're what every student needs, but I've never heard of a lama taking his own medicine, and undertaking this treatment himself at any point in his training.
Buddhism is unique in that it denies the existence of a soul, as it denies the existence of self. The self being an illusion born of the ego with no reality to base itself on.
so does that mean that what i put in my previous post, the ego is part of the ideal self that many people live with, and with buddhist practice we move towards our psychological real self, without ego?
am i understanding this right? sorry if l havent taken this thread wayward!
"Our psychological real self"? That may have an equivalent in Buddhism, but it wouldn't be expressed by the term "self".
A compassionate being would not step out of the way of an abuser. A compassionate being is already aware of what decision has to be made to benefit healing and joy for all involved from the bigger picture, including the abuser's, even if it means dividing a family from a harmful person.
If a lama is verbally abusive to a student in the context of simply giving standard teachings in a group setting, I speak up, or I have a little talk with the lama privately. There's no place for verbal abuse or rudeness in a routine sangha teachings context.
Okay on the one hand I think there is a point where verbal abuse doesn't really touch you so much. It becomes something you observe, and you still have compassion for the person attempting the abuse. I have had several challenges in the years since I left the abusive relationship where others tried similar things. One thing that helped was that they were not in a position of power over me. I had already survived the relationship where the other person had power over me so really I was not affected too much. I mean they were playing around with the pro survivor after all. So I recall one conversation where this lady I supervised just was going on and on, saying I was interupting her as well, I felt half there and half observing but I felt no anger towards her. I waited and when she stopped I just responded to her. However several factors are in abuse that are not in just bad behavior. One is the power differential, and it has to be real. So I couldn't call this abuse because I was actually in charge, but my previous self could have been affected by worrying about if she liked me or how others we worked with saw me. But when you let go of attachment to many things it makes it much harder for someone to have power over you. Instead of being controlled by your image or lots of money you may only be affected when your life or basic health is in danger. Not as many people will really threaten those.
Okay on the other side, ya know there is one, is that abuse is about power, control and lack of empathy. Compassionate actions are not about power, control and not feeling empathy. So it may look and feel very similar but it is possible to be different. I would find it hard to imagine someone who was continually controlled and did not get treated with any empathy would get to compassion very easily. Some do of course, but many more people are damaged and spend years healing.
Long winded but I think it is relevant
Unless you are advanced in your mindfulness and perception of anatta, I think being subject to abuse is unskillful. It will only increase your defensiveness (ego) and arouse unwholesome mind states.
In other words, avoid abusive people.
If you get rid of ego, you go into psychosis.
You need ego for normal functioning as a person in this world.
Buddhism aims not at destroying the ego, but at letting go of attachment to ego as a solid, permanent entity.
Just clarifying.
I don't believe that you can destroy the ego and have seen many disciples harmed by such treatment, ending up in therapy for depression and low self-esteem all due to the thankfulness of some guru. And if a disciple makes it through this school of hard knocks, he becomes an abuser as well. I have seen pecking order in guru organizations where when the guru isn't around, his closest students abuse those below them.
sattvaaul, i agree with you too. as i look above what i am writing and see that you said you need the ego for normal functioning. what these gurus are doing is trying to make you comply with them totally. i think everyone should read The Guru Papers as it is an eye opener. Destroying the ego is a Tibetan Buddhist and Hindu concept as I have never heard of it in Zen, and my Zen teacher said that it couldn't be done and that if teachers were abusive people would leave. It doesn't help anyone. Neither does this Wrathful Compassion, which doesn't anger me but makes me realize how stupid the posters are that use it in an attempt to change my views. It doesn't work with me.
For example, if someone flips me the finger when I am driving, I can let that go and just bless that person. I don't get angry. If I am in a group and someone I hardly knows says something, I can still do that to a great extend. But if it is a so-called friend I am hurt and then maybe end the friendship, depending.
Then at the same time the chronic ones can do so much damage! I see that despite wanting to be so independant, we are very social creatures and dependant on our society to some extent. Even a beggar needs to have someone giving him food, and they may be okay in places where it is seen as spiritual but in Denver you would be just another homeless bum. That means that abuse has to work in that framework, and often it does. So the concerns about being with a guru who is abusive in the name of enlightenment are very important. There are some areas of society that are more prone to this than others, I think the legal system in the US is like the playground of narcissists and abusers. I had to study the system to get through it intact, still had effective arguments that my ex needed more food money because he was used to it, while me and the kids spent less. And sometimes sports teams, not that all are like this but it seems that people accept the yelling rude coach as normal.
For me it wasn;t just the legal system when we got to that point that supported the abuse, it was really almost everyone. The most I got for years of support was when people were tired of me being upset they would just tell me to leave, like that was so easy. Without strong social support you can't usually leave. My family thought I was just overreacting all the time, my friends couldn't figure out how he was charming to them and mean to me, even my chruch at the time. They actually knew that he was not nice but figured that somehow I could make him a better person and that was my job. I got calls over the years asking me to get him to behave at certain functions.
I am actually very aware of and have studied verbal and emotional abuse. There are things that are accepted to some extent in relationships that are actually forms of torture as well. Actions like not letting someone sleep (can't go to sleep angry), controlling food strictly (in the name of supporting a diet), isolating a person (because you love them so much), etc.
Okay off the soap box!
We don't call a stove an abuser if it burns us... we learn to walk away, turn the stove off, or work with the stove in a skillful way.