worried about something that i have been told about my local centre!

kayward2011

I was planning on doing some courses at my local Buddhist Centre, but have been sent the following message:

Hi

From the Manchester Buddhist Centre website -
http://www.manchesterbuddhistcentre.org.uk/

'Manchester Buddhist Centre is bring­ing an ancient tra­di­tion alive in the mod­ern world as part of the Tri­r­atna Buddhist Com­munity (formerly Friends of the West­ern Buddhist Order

I came across this forum tonight after a random internet surf. I searched the Manchester Buddhist Centre and found out they are part of the Tri­r­atna community and used to be the Western Buddist Order.

If you do a google search you will find out that there are accusations of the community being a cult. This is one link http://www.triratnabuddhist.blogspot.com/. And another http://triratnanews.wordpress.com/. You can also look at wiki for information.


anyone heard of anything like this?

Mountains

Here's my take on this (and this isn't the only group like this). With so many upstanding sanghas out there, particularly in big cities like Manchester, why bother to get entangled with groups that someone obviously has a problem with? I'm not passing judgement one way or the other on them, because I know nothing about the situation. However, there are plenty of other sanghas you could get involved with, and undoubtedly other teachers out there.

I just don't think it's worth my time and energy (negative energy at that) to get involved with someone else's issues.

Just my thought...

DhammaDhatu

I have had some contact with the West­ern Buddhist Order in Australia

I trust the courses they offer will be well structured & will benefit you

As for the contraversies, it takes more than one party to cause a problem

If you are merely attending the centre to do some courses, then that is fine

The past contraversies include matters of some sexual behaviours amongst teachers & students

It requires both the teacher & the student to enter into such behaviour in a secretive manner

If you attend a Tri­r­atna Buddhist Com­munity centre, there will be nothing there to get you into such a situation unless you (and another) are secretely looking for it

These problems inevitably occur in religious groups, regardless of their denomination

They occur with those individuals who are seeking such behaviours

The Buddha instructed the five precepts and this is our guide to appropriate behaviour, regardless of the Buddhist centre we visit

My recommendation is to simply let the contraversy be something of the past.

Let it go and start the first course (do not commit to all) as you planned.

It all depends in how the course resonates with you and I trust it will be fine.

Kind regards

DD

kayward2011

Thanks DD you have reassured me to progress on the introduction course!! Take it from there

Talisman

I agree with DD. The folly of a minority should not reflect on the majority.

It rhymes!

DhammaDhatu

Most Buddhist groups are fine and I thoroughly enjoyed my visits to the WBO

I stopped attending because I was asked to bring my Pali suttas to the group discussions but occassionally what they taught did not fully conform to my personal understanding. But this is just an interpretational matter (like the debates we have at New Buddhist). So when they asked me to offer a reading from the Pali suttas, I was becoming a little uncomfortable

They were slightly 'quirky' to me, taking themselves a little seriously with their individual Buddhist ordination names & statuses.

But apart from that, like most Buddhist groups, they were lovely, friendly and kind people.

It was fun and their activities were very well & thoughtfully organised.

Best wishes

Talisman

my Pali suttas

How long have you been studying Pali, dd? Did you have to study with other Buddhist practitioners or were you educated through a university?

DhammaDhatu

Thanks Talisman

By Pali suttas, I am just refering to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations. I am not fluent in Pali itself.

But I have been studying the suttas since the first publication of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Majjhima Nikaya.

I was living in a monastary at the time and was invited to contribute to the pre-publication costs.

Regards

GuyC

But I have been studying the suttas since the first publication of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Majjhima Nikaya.

I was living in a monastary at the time and was invited to contribute to the pre-publication costs.

Sadhu sadhu sadhu!

Talisman

Thanks Talisman

By Pali suttas, I am just refering to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations. I am not fluent in Pali itself.

But I have been studying the suttas since the first publication of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Majjhima Nikaya.

I was living in a monastary at the time and was invited to contribute to the pre-publication costs.

Regards

That's very interesting, I would love to have some hand-on experience like that. It sounds like a good opportunity to practice "at the source," per say.

caz

Dont believe what other people tell you discern for yourself.

zenff

Sometimes people actually; ask their teacher for advice on very personal decisions; that is foolish. It’s your life and it always will be and a proper teacher will throw those questions back at you.
When you make your own decisions, you can’t blame anyone else when afterwards you have regrets.

Much abuse in teacher /student relationships has to do with teachers making big mistakes; sure; but nearly always the student is part of it.
A teacher has exactly the amount of power over your life that you place in his hands.
Remember that and you will be fine.

kayward2011

Sometimes people actually; ask their teacher for advice on very personal decisions; that is foolish. It’s your life and it always will be and a proper teacher will throw those questions back at you.
When you make your own decisions, you can’t blame anyone else when afterwards you have regrets.

Much abuse in teacher /student relationships has to do with teachers making big mistakes; sure; but nearly always the student is part of it.
A teacher has exactly the amount of power over your life that you place in his hands.
Remember that and you will be fine.

Thank You, that makes lots of sense!

ashcatman

This place has had some pretty bad feedback. They charge people for buddhism courses. (there shouldnt be any charge for real dharma talks) Perhaps a little donation but not a full 60+ pounds for a 30 minute talk. Its really bad.

Also their main teacher has had bad things said about him. (you can find it on google somewhere) The place is abit culty..Ive been there. And even some staff are not very nice (considering their supposed to be buddhists)

A friend of main paid for the course and was thinking he was gonna get a good introduction on buddhism but ended up being a man sitting down and said ''ok has anyone got any questions?

But for someone who hadnt any questions and wanted an introduction the course was rubbish he said. I personally think its all about the money making with them.

They sell buddhism books which are REALLY EXPENSIVE. You can get all books of amazon half price.

There are many other sanghas around manchester that dont charge ANYTHING. and you can borrow books for FREE. Because its about spreading the dharma. True Dharma.

''Remember, NEVER EVER pay anyone to tell you secrets on life. or how to be happy on life'' Always trust those who are willing to spread the dharma for free.

kayward2011

Hi, could you indicate the other centres in Manchester!! please

Dakini

I've noticed that the dominant trend in some parts of Europe is to charge fees for teachings. In most sanghas in the US teachings are free, unless a lama has been flown in for some sort of special teaching or empowerment, and even then, sometimes it's free. I don't understand why it's so different between the US and Canada, on the one hand, and England and the German-speaking countries on the other. They Nyingma Center in Berkeley, CA, is one exception to the practice in the US; they charge for everything, like formal classes in a university. But that's rare.

kayward2011

just found this one and it has classes in Bolton where i live, they are £6. all the centres charge, nothing is free in England!

kayward2011

http://www.meditation-in-manchester.org/

Dakini

Well, 5 pounds (or Euros?) isn't bad, what's that, about $10? That's more like a donation. Though I suppose it adds up over a month's time. But it's not like paying $150-$200 or more in advance for 6 weeks of teachings, as in the Nyingma Center. I've heard of some centers in England and Germany charging more than just 10 whatevers. Thanks for the info, kayward. : )

ashcatman

here are All buddhism centres in manchester. Ive visited a few. (and some are really good)


http://www.umsu.manchester.ac.uk/mubs/manchester.html

kayward2011

££ GBP and they are weekly drop in self contained sessions!
but what is Kadampa Buddhism??

ashcatman

ring a view and just ask how much they charge etc etc..

ashcatman

From what i know, The kadampa tradition also have bad feedback. Again some say its become culty. Even the Dalai Lama apparentely doesnt like the head teacher.

Its very strange. Best bet is just to ring and visit a few yourself. But never ever pay any centre money to learn buddhas teachings.

rapidx

We're quite lucky in Manchester. There are a few different places. There is even a Thai monistary in edgeley! Where they hold courses etc.. I found the Manchester Buddhist centre great. The £65 for a 6 week course isn't too bad. After the courses there isn't a charge as such just Dana.

Dazzle

The Theravada Forest tradition monasteries in the UK don't charge for teachings, meditation instruction, or accommodation.

caz

Kadampa Buddhism: Fairly easy to get along with meditation classes usually consist of a talk,meditation then tea and buiscuits and questions. Go and have a try been to alot myself.

tamm

I'll jump in on the money topic briefly. At the center where I'm going the puja and those kinds of events are free, but the specialized classes have a small fee. ($50) for 8 weeks worth of courses that are 2 hours long. This is really not to much in my opinion. I came from Mormonism where you're expected to pay 10% of your gross income to the church. If you don't pay them tithing than you are put in a very, very bad light and is a serious thing. So $50 for me to enjoy a class for that long of a period in comparison to the obligatory payment of a large chunk of my small income is very much preferable.
*edited* I also know that it's been very hard for them to obtain the building where we meet. So if I want to continue being able to visit there and support the events then I don't really mind paying some donations!

Dakini

$50 sounds very reasonable for what you describe. Thanks for that info. I only hope that people who truly aren't able to pay in these difficult economic times are also allowed to attend. And I'm aware there is overhead, that maintenance and rent or purchase of property requires money. I don't know how the thousands of centers in the US manage, but I'm glad they do, so that people can attend for free, or for a nominal donation.

Jeffrey

I paid 50 dollars a month to attend kung fu classes at which I could attend 3 sessions a week during hours after university and 3 sessions a week in the morning (I could attend Saturday). A respected 'lineage' in kung fu, Wah Lum.

Tosh

I've struggled with the 'donation' aspect in Buddhism in the UK. There are 'recommended donations' which seem quite high to me, particularly when I factor in a travel costs and a bridge toll fee.

And some of those Buddhist temples look expensive too; they must cost a few quid!

Maybe I shouldn't, but I compare Buddhism with Alcoholics Anonymous; and there A.A. just passes a 'hat'; there's no 'recommended donation amount'; in fact newcomers are told that there's other ways they can contribute such as doing service (putting chairs out, washing up coffee mugs after the meeting; that kind of thing).

A.A. from a financial contribution point of view seems more spiritual to me. We really want to see people recover from their alcoholism and don't own any property so that issues of status or prestige don't get in the way. Heck, we even have limits on what you can give and how often you can give; people have tried to leave their estate to A.A. in their will, and A.A. can't accept it.

I pay for a Buddhist course at £32 a month; but I'd get much more involved with a local sangha if it wasn't so expensive to attend each time. £6 is the donation amount; if I go with Mrs Tosh that's £12. Add fuel about £5 and a bridge toll £6; in total that's £23 to go once-per-week.

I think I have a minor resentment here! ;-)

tjampel

Dont believe what other people tell you discern for yourself.

Don't ignore it either. It's far too important that a beginner's experience with the dharma is a positive one. The chances of any sentient being encountering the dharma as a human endowed with all the fortunes an leisures to practice that most of us have are infinitesimal; a negative experience, which makes one reject the dharma or the sangha isn't something to take lightly.

I don't prejudge a group simply because it has WBO antecedents; however I'd definitely scrutinize it carefully and most certainly check out another group before I decided which center (centre) was most appropriate for me.

Anyway, the focus should be on finding a proper teacher, more so than finding a group which has the right vibe. There may be some great teachers within this Center or...not.

In my tradition, having a spiritual friend who is qualified to teach you is the most important thing you can have in your life; the highest and best mind that can appear to you is the mind wherein you are receiving instructions from a being who correctly understands and has correctly practiced the teachings, and who is controlled, has pacified negative emotions, is able to meditate well, understands the scriptural tradition (as well as any oral one that's relevant), has spiritual qualities which exceed yours, has, at the very least a deep conceptual understanding of emptiness (or, depending on the tradition...selflessness), loves her or his students, loves teaching them, teaches to their level, and doesn't get tired or frustrated---can teach the same thing again and again (I may have left one out). There are 10 qualities; the most important are the teacher's behavior, correct understanding of the teachings, especially those related to wisdom, and compassion for her/his students. Any others are, as we say in the States---"gravy".

The best way to obtain such a teacher (in my tradition; I'm sure this is quite different for others) is literally to ask for one to come and teach you; to do a practice where you request your teacher to appear from afar. Teachers and Buddhas both appear when asked (the Buddha only taught when asked, by Brahma, I believe). Of course, this is not to imply that a teacher will email you out of the blue or show up at your door; you still need to do exactly what you're doing---investigating various places where there are supposed to be qualified teachers.

vixthenomad

There is a Triratna centre in Brighton too. I've only been there once but it seemed OK. I spoke to a lady called Dharmakara (I think) who advised me to look at various Buddhist centres and schools of thought, not just that one. That in itself was enough to reassure me that there wasn't anything culty going on in that particular centre, although obviously it could be different in other parts of the country. The Brighton centre has meditation drop-in sessions, some of which are free and the others work out at around £2-3 per hour. It does offer courses, but given my track record of sticking with that sort of thing I'll probably just stick to doing it on an ad hoc basis.

vixthenomad

Further to my last post, having done a Google search on 'triratna cult', I have just found this blog post:

http://www.triratnabuddhist.blogspot.com/

I found it heartbreaking. Now that I've started reading the actual sutras I have gained more understanding of Buddhism and I know how twisted some of the teachings became during the poster's experience with this group.

I'll be treading with caution, I think, and visiting a variety of centres and sanghas, not just one.

caz

Its always good to visit plenty of centres to see which you find to your liking, You can find a scandle anywhere if you look hard enough organisations are run by human beings with delusions like the rest of us a good thing to look at is the head teacher of such an organisation to see whether their conduct is virtuous and so one should examine a resident teacher in the same way to make sure they teach with wisdom and compassion.

kayward2011

Yes, the Manchester centre does a free speech session thingy, l might go to one and them and see how it feels!!

DhammaDhatu

The best way is to visit different centres & groups. You should especially try to make time to visit Amaravati, even if just for a Sunday talk. Here, one can experience Buddhism, at its most genuine. Plus, it is for free (no cost). Regards

http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.php

Dazzle

The best way is to visit different centres & groups. You should especially try to make time to visit Amaravati, even if just for a Sunday talk. Here, one can experience Buddhism, at its most genuine. Plus, it is for free (no cost). Regards

http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.php

Yes, definately recommended and the accomodation is free if you want to stay there for a while. Retreats are also free.