Wrong speech and verbal karma

driedleaf

namaste,

I understand that causing bad karma through speech will bring forth bad karma upon oneself, but what about someone who uses their speech to cause a great deal of harm to someone or death? Such as lying to cause someone harm or death. Would the severity of this type of verbal action still be classified as wrong speech, or would this verbal action be the same as a physical act? In other words would this violate both the fourth precept and the first precept together or just the fourth precept by itself?

With metta

vixthenomad

Wow, complicated question...I imagine (as a fellow beginner) that it might be covered under both. In any case you would certainly have broken at least one, so probably best avoided.

Dakini

I would imagine that indirectly being the cause of a death, if causing a death had been the intent, would be a violation of the first precept. Telling the truth could also indirectly cause a death, as in the oft-used example of what to do when the Gestapo knocks on your door asking if you're harboring Jews. If you tell the truth in order to avoid breaking the vow against deceit, you send the family hiding in your basement to their deaths. But if you lie, they live. So it's better in such a case to lie, and take the karmic heat for that, in order to save lives. If you tell the truth, thereby keeping your vow of honesty, you (somewhat inadvertently) send the family to their death. If killing them wasn't your intent, you might get a little karmic slack (it's about intent), but not much, I would think.

Mountains

It's about intention. If I were, say, an air traffic controller, and in the course of doing my job I inadvertently told a pilot to do something that caused his airplane to crash and kill 250 people, yet I hadn't intended to do so, then I don't think negative kamma is produced. I still caused the deaths to happen, but I didn't intend to do so. That's an extreme example of course, but you see what I mean?

zenff

What’s the point of that question?

Are you trying to calculate the consequences of some vicious plan?
If you can get away with a simple breaking of the fourth precept up you will do it?
If it is a breaking of the first you wont?

driedleaf

The point of the question is to find out what people think about speech, how it is understood today, and how it relates towards karma.

Mountains

Right speech is good, wrong speech is bad. That's pretty much the gist of the situation.

Dakini

lol !! zenff, I had the same reaction when I first read the OP. but then I realized that it's not unusual for students of Buddhism to ponder the precepts, how they fit together, and come up with some moral quandaries. (Been there, done that, myself.) Same with trying to figure out how non-attachment works, dependent origination, and so forth. Some funny questions can arise, but this is how people learn. It's not always as simple and straightforward as it might seem. That's why there are teachers. I don't think driedleaf is hatching some evil plan, or looking to throw the book at someone else (which also crossed my mind).

Newbies--ya gotta love 'em! Welcome to the forum, dried leaf. : )

driedleaf

Thank you Dakini.