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I think, perhaps, ritual is a psychological aid that allows mindstream imprinting to be accomplished in a manner which is simpler than deep meditation.
And why aren't you practicing patience and respectful speech, kowtaaia? Surely the point you're trying to make, or your desire to be either understood or right, does not take precedence over The Noble Eightfold Path.
So, if I was correct in the assumption that you were using the word "sensation" as meaning vedana, then I feel that I am also correct in saying that vedana is not the totality of "experience". Unless, of course, you are using simply "experience" as the precise moment vedana arises, otherwise there are eleven other links in the chain that have gone unnoticed.
So, if I was correct in the assumption that you were using the word "sensation" as meaning vedana, then I feel that I am also correct in saying that vedana is not the totality of "experience". Unless, of course, you are using simply "experience" as the precise moment vedana arises, otherwise there are eleven other links in the chain that have gone unnoticed.
Jason
Yes vedana. No one said "the TOTALITY of experience", only that sensation IS experience and experience IS sensation. Think it out. As for the consciousness thing that you mentioned previously: there is no consciousness without object of consciousness.
Well, that was why I also asked for everyone to help my out by defining their use of "experience" as well. For example, each moment of a person's "experience" is nothing but the chain of dependent co-arising. One could then say that each moment arises and ceases, giving rise to "experience", but each moment also contains all twelve links. So, while you might say sensation = experience, I would say contact + sensation + consciousness... = experience.
Well, that was why I also asked for everyone to help my out by defining their use of "experience" as well. For example, each moment of a person's "experience" is nothing but the chain of dependent co-arising. One could then say that each moment arises and ceases, giving rise to "experience", but each moment also contains all twelve links. So, while you might say sensation = experience, I would say contact + sensation + consciousness... = experience.
Jason
Elohim,
There's something wrong with the picture that your equation presents.
You are saying: The contact of a white hot poker with the skin-PLUS-the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-PLUS-the consciousness of the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-EQUALS-experience.
What is the difference between sensation/consciousness/experience?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
There's something wrong with the picture that your equation presents.
You are saying: The contact of a white hot poker with the skin-PLUS-the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-PLUS-the consciousness of the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-EQUALS-experience.
What is the difference between sensation/consciousness/experience? [/b]
This takes the form of bowing to a Buddha image (not idolatrously of course). This is an act that shows respect for the teachings of the Buddha and how they relate to the Nirvana he achieved that we all can achieve. In a sense we're bowing to what is possible in ourselves. It also takes the form of chanting Buddhist texts (Tripitaka, Heart Sutra, etc.) in front of the Buddha image. Laying and offering flowers, bowls of water, incense, candles, and such are also ways to venerate.
Meditation
Meditation is a reflection ritual that is designed to help us see and raise ourselves to a higher level of consciousness. There are two main types of meditation: vipassana and samatha. Vipassana is insight meditation in which you focus on something within yourself such as reflections of the day/your life, reflections on your emotions, and reflections on your spiritual beliefs. Vipassana is also a realization of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Samatha is the development of mental tranquillity with concentration, is accompanied by three benefits; it gives happiness in the present life, a favorable rebirth, and the freedom from mental defilements which is a prerequisite for attainment of insight. Loving-kindness meditation in which you think of a person you like, a person that is neutral to you, and a person who you dislike and think that you love them each time is a type of samatha meditation.
There are also holidays which have rituals such as almsgiving.
Don't even get me started on the Tibetan and Tantric rituals, though. :hiding:
I love your avatar. It's cool. Thanks for that reminder that meditation is a ritual and is essential to Buddhist practice. So, this answers the original question of the thread.
YAAAYY!!!
Hope,
Re your initial query on Ritual, this thread has really confused me. ONLY Zenmonk Genryu (and the last 3 comments by The Infanta, Brigid, and Xrayman) make any sense to me at all.
If it's useful and beautiful to others, why relegate it to the junkyard?
It may not float your boat, but it can edify others. I guess I'm saying that my experience with ritual in religion has been to link me with beauty (and therefore, with truth.)
Here's what John Keats has to say about the place of beauty in the order of things in his Ode on a Grecian Urn:
O Attic shape! fair attitude! with brede
Of marble men and maidens overwrought,
With forest branches and the trodden weed;
Thou, silent form! dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pastoral! When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st, 'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'
Ninian Smart listed seven dimensions of worldviews, secular or religious, in order of importance. Therefore, what system can do completely without one of these?:
I love your avatar. It's cool. Thanks for that reminder that meditation is a ritual and is essential to Buddhist practice. So, this answers the original question of the thread.
YAAAYY!!!
Love,
Brigid
Thank you. I liked it a lot, as well.
And you're very welcome on the subject of meditation being a ritual component of Buddhism.
Kowtaaia, why did you acuse Genryu of shaking hands mindlessly? Have you shaken hands with him? Are you assuming that anything that one calls "ritual" is necessarily mindless? Ritual, just like any action, can be performed either mindlessly or mindfully.
Kowtaaia, why did you acuse Genryu of shaking hands mindlessly? Have you shaken hands with him? Are you assuming that anything that one calls "ritual" is necessarily mindless? Ritual, just like any action, can be performed either mindlessly or mindfully.
VoidWhereProhibited,
z_g said: " When we shake hands - that's a ritual, saying good morning etc., etc.."
He was making a general statement. He wasn't just talking about himself and kowtaaia. Do you understand? For most (especially the "good mornings"), it's automatic, mindless.
The question is not whether ritual is mindful or not. Hopefully it is. The question is: is it superfluous or not.
Do you agree with the statement that meditation is a ritual?
Yes, I do. A ritual is merely a customarily repeated act, secular or not. As someone has already said, shaking hands can be considered a ritual. Brushing your teeth can be a ritual. Meditation is a ritual.
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin ritualis, from ritus rite
1 : of or relating to rites or a ritual : CEREMONIAL <a ritual dance>
2 : according to religious law or social custom <ritual purity>
The Infanta,
The reason that I disagreed with that particualr statement was that I have a problem with the word "ritual". If people are using meditation simply as a customarily repeated act, then they are doing nothing more than wasting their time. Meditation should be a purposeful act imbued with effort, mindfulness, and sustained awareness. Meditation is not just an outward show of one's faith or beliefs, it is an active process specifically designed to achieve a specific goal. It is a tool used for achieving, and examining very refined states of mind, as well as temporarily subduing the five hindrances. It is something to be used in one's practice, not merely observed out of religious law or social custom.
The reason that I disagreed with that particualr statement was that I have a problem with the word "ritual". If people are using meditation simply as a customarily repeated act, then they are doing nothing more than wasting their time. Meditation should be a purposeful act imbued with effort, mindfulness, and sustained awareness. Meditation is not just an outward show of one's faith or beliefs, it is an active process specifically designed to achieve a specific goal. It is a tool used for achieving, and examining very refined states of mind, as well as temporarily subduing the five hindrances. It is something to be used in one's practice, not merely observed out of religious law or social custom.
Main Entry: 2ritual
Function: noun
1 : the established form for a ceremony; specifically : the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony
2 a : ritual observance; specifically : a system of rites b : a ceremonial act or action c : a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts
I didn't say that meditation was merely a customarily repeated act. It is meaningful. It's very meaningful, and it shouldn't be observed just to conform to religious laws. I feel most in tune with myself and the world whenever I am meditating and I honor that feeling by customarily repeating the action.
Rituals aren't merely things that are for observance of religious law.
My apologizes then. I was simply using the definition of "ritual" from the dictionary. Perhaps you would like to give me your personal definition of "ritual", so that way I can be clear as to how you mean it.
Also, I apologize for assuming that you were saying that meditation was a customarily repeated act. I simply inferred that conclusion from your statement that:
My apologizes then. I was simply using the definition of "ritual" from the dictionary. Perhaps you would like to give me your personal definition of "ritual", so that way I can be clear as to how you mean it.
I wasn't using a personal definition. I was using a definition from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary. You used the adjective definition, not the noun.
Also, I apologize for assuming that you were saying that meditation was a customarily repeated act. I simply inferred that conclusion from your statement that:
Jason
It is a customarily repeated act. You erred by assuming that I think that that is all there is to it. You didn't seem to notice that I stated that meditation is a ritual fueled with tons of meaning, not just some tedious task done for religious conformity.
Function: noun
1 : the established form for a ceremony; specifically : the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony
2 a : ritual observance; specifically : a system of rites b : a ceremonial act or action c : a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts
I still wouldn't agree that meditation is simply a ritual [meaningful or not]. It has nothing to do with being "customary" or "ceremonial". You can certainly make it in to that, but that is not what meditation actual is. If that is how you would define meditation, then I would just have to disagree with that definition.
Besides, kowtaaia's simply asked me question, and I merely answered.
You didn't seem to notice that I stated that meditation is a ritual fueled with tons of meaning, not just some tedious task done for religious conformity.
I still wouldn't agree that meditation is simply a ritual [meaningful or not]. It has nothing to do with being "customary" or "ceremonial". You can certainly make it in to that, but that is not what meditation actual is. If that is how you would define meditation, then I would just have to disagree with that definition.
I never said that meditation was simply a ritual. As I've said two or three times now I think, meditation is a special, beautiful thing, not some simple ritual. I haven't a clue where you found me saying that meditation is simply a ritual.
Say what you wish, I am not here to argue with you. I was simply answering kowtaaia's question, and clarifying my reasons for such.
To be fair, however, you did say at first that "meditation is a ritual," while defining ritual as "merely a customarily repeated act, secular or not." You did not add anything else to that statement, so what else could I have assumed? If you actually meant something else, you simply were not clear in that.
Perhaps in the future, you could be clearer in your posts, so that way misunderstanding like this will not have the opportunity to arise.
Say what you wish, I am not here to argue with you. I was simply answering kowtaaia's question, and clarifying my reasons for such.
To be fair, however, you did say at first that "meditation is a ritual," while defining ritual as "merely a customarily repeated act, secular or not." You did not add anything else to that statement, so what else could have I assumed? If you actually meant something else, you simply were not clear in that.
Perhaps in the future, you could be clearer in your posts, so that way misunderstanding like this will not have the opportunity to arise.
Jason
I'm not here to argue with you either. You engaged me in a debate (which I have no problem with mind you) and I debated back.
Yes, I suppose I was a bit vague. I assumed that you would all know that I was not calling meditation some simple, meaningless religious observance, and I was wrong. For that I apologise.
Quite honestly, your answer was a given. We agree on something. Anyone that relegates meditation to method, had better hope that the Hindu take on rebirth is the right one.
Is attention bound to, restricted by, tethered to the known, when it allows the past to function repetitively?
Is that better?
Sorry, kowtaaia, no. I'm still too dense to get it. I better bow out now because if I don't understand the question, I definitely won't have the answer. LOL
I'm totally lost but I wouldn't mind reading what you and Elohim discuss about it.
Regarding what Infanta and Elohim were talking about, I was thinking of ritual as anything repetitive in nature. I was thinking in terms of empty, mindless ritual vs richly meaningful, profound ritual. I got lost somewhere. (Maybe it's the meds. ...did I just say that out loud?)
Oh, well. Maybe I'll give your question another shot tomorrow.
Regarding what Infanta and Elohim were talking about, I was thinking of ritual as anything repetitive in nature. I was thinking in terms of empty, mindless ritual vs richly meaningful, profound ritual.
And everything in between.
Rituals, like everything else, are only as meaningful or meaningless as we make them. A lot of the "created" rituals were probably created or invented as carriers of meaning, but may seem empty to us because we don't see or understand the meaning they were meant to hold.
Sorry, kowtaaia, no. I'm still too dense to get it. I better bow out now because if I don't understand the question, I definitely won't have the answer. LOL
I'm totally lost but I wouldn't mind reading what you and Elohim discuss about it.
Regarding what Infanta and Elohim were talking about, I was thinking of ritual as anything repetitive in nature. I was thinking in terms of empty, mindless ritual vs richly meaningful, profound ritual. I got lost somewhere. (Maybe it's the meds. ...did I just say that out loud?)
Oh, well. Maybe I'll give your question another shot tomorrow.
Brigid
Just consider the question.
Anyways, it's not a good idea to discuss it with Elohim. He might find that we agree again.
How much suffering can the lad endure? :rolleyesc
Just consider the question.
Anyways, it's not a good idea to discuss it with Elohim. He might find that we agree again.
How much suffering can the lad endure? :rolleyesc
I know I'm coming in pretty late here... but I'll throw up my opinion like I always do...
I believe rituals are what you make of them and that it all comes down to mindfulness.
There was a statement made here about how shaking hands is a ritual... or even the casual "How ya doin'!?" we get in the mornings.
If one isn't mindful of the ritual and what it means, I believe it becomes useless. Whether it's Communion or meditation. If you are just doing meditation because the bell rang and that's what everyone else is doing - I think it loses some of it's benefits. If you take Communion because that's what everyone else is doing - it loses it's meaning.
A handshake can become a ritual - but what about a heartfelt handshake? Where you are truly happy to see or meet someone? Hugs can be ritual - but what about being mindful of hugging this person that you've, once again, had the wonderful opportunity to see?
I believe we all come to some sort of "ritual" acceptance in our lives - what we're comfortable with. Then it comes down to how "Mindful" we are when doing these rituals as to their importance.
Rules and rituals can be useful guides if given to people by the wise. It can give them a start and lead them to liberation initially.However, if one were to say all Buddhists require rules and rituals one would be slandering the arhants. The Sotapana already gave `em up
For me the rituals that I perform serve as a focal-point for my mind. You see - I suffer from chronic "monkey - mind" and find it difficult to steer clear of mental flotsam and jetsom. By performing certain ritualized "acts"I find myself able to hone-in on more NOBLE points of interest. :om:
In view, there is very little difference between "ritual" and "meaningful action."
The "difference" is on the inside and seldom obvious on the outside. Ritual is conditioned action without personal meaning. Meaningful action is that which we do to reinforce our own commitment to a given activity.
My entire meditation methodology consists of personlaized meaningful actions. To "another" it would appear to be "ritual." To the masters of my temple, they are not "ritual" -- there is nothng in the lineage methodology that is exactly the same as the actions I employ.
"Ritual" as a term is as empty as are ritual activities themselves.
Comments
And why aren't you practicing patience and respectful speech, kowtaaia? Surely the point you're trying to make, or your desire to be either understood or right, does not take precedence over The Noble Eightfold Path.
Brigid
So, if I was correct in the assumption that you were using the word "sensation" as meaning vedana, then I feel that I am also correct in saying that vedana is not the totality of "experience". Unless, of course, you are using simply "experience" as the precise moment vedana arises, otherwise there are eleven other links in the chain that have gone unnoticed.
Jason
Yes vedana. No one said "the TOTALITY of experience", only that sensation IS experience and experience IS sensation. Think it out. As for the consciousness thing that you mentioned previously: there is no consciousness without object of consciousness.
Brig,
Imagine a smiley face.
Well, that was why I also asked for everyone to help my out by defining their use of "experience" as well. For example, each moment of a person's "experience" is nothing but the chain of dependent co-arising. One could then say that each moment arises and ceases, giving rise to "experience", but each moment also contains all twelve links. So, while you might say sensation = experience, I would say contact + sensation + consciousness... = experience.
Jason
Imagine a smiley face."
O.K. You sweet talkin', silver tongued devil.
(Imagining smiley face, I begin to sing..."You made me love you, I didn't want to do it, I didn't want to do it...") lol
Love
Brigid
Elohim,
There's something wrong with the picture that your equation presents.
You are saying: The contact of a white hot poker with the skin-PLUS-the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-PLUS-the consciousness of the sensation of the contact of the white hot poker on the skin-EQUALS-experience.
What is the difference between sensation/consciousness/experience?
SEMANTICS.
Would you say that ear = person, or would you say eye + ear + nose... = person?
Jason
Neither!
Jason
Venerating the Buddha and Bodhisattvas
This takes the form of bowing to a Buddha image (not idolatrously of course). This is an act that shows respect for the teachings of the Buddha and how they relate to the Nirvana he achieved that we all can achieve. In a sense we're bowing to what is possible in ourselves. It also takes the form of chanting Buddhist texts (Tripitaka, Heart Sutra, etc.) in front of the Buddha image. Laying and offering flowers, bowls of water, incense, candles, and such are also ways to venerate.
Meditation
Meditation is a reflection ritual that is designed to help us see and raise ourselves to a higher level of consciousness. There are two main types of meditation: vipassana and samatha. Vipassana is insight meditation in which you focus on something within yourself such as reflections of the day/your life, reflections on your emotions, and reflections on your spiritual beliefs. Vipassana is also a realization of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Samatha is the development of mental tranquillity with concentration, is accompanied by three benefits; it gives happiness in the present life, a favorable rebirth, and the freedom from mental defilements which is a prerequisite for attainment of insight. Loving-kindness meditation in which you think of a person you like, a person that is neutral to you, and a person who you dislike and think that you love them each time is a type of samatha meditation.
There are also holidays which have rituals such as almsgiving.
Don't even get me started on the Tibetan and Tantric rituals, though. :hiding:
I love your avatar. It's cool. Thanks for that reminder that meditation is a ritual and is essential to Buddhist practice. So, this answers the original question of the thread.
YAAAYY!!!
Love,
Brigid
I have just had something explained to me very simply-thanks! (about meditation)
I appreciate that.
regards,
Xrayman
Re your initial query on Ritual, this thread has really confused me. ONLY Zenmonk Genryu (and the last 3 comments by The Infanta, Brigid, and Xrayman) make any sense to me at all.
If it's useful and beautiful to others, why relegate it to the junkyard?
It may not float your boat, but it can edify others. I guess I'm saying that my experience with ritual in religion has been to link me with beauty (and therefore, with truth.)
Here's what John Keats has to say about the place of beauty in the order of things in his Ode on a Grecian Urn:
Of marble men and maidens overwrought,
With forest branches and the trodden weed;
Thou, silent form! dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pastoral!
When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ninian Smart listed seven dimensions of worldviews, secular or religious, in order of importance. Therefore, what system can do completely without one of these?:
And you're very welcome on the subject of meditation being a ritual component of Buddhism.
Aack!
Elohim,
Do you agree with the statement that meditation is a ritual?
VoidWhereProhibited,
z_g said: " When we shake hands - that's a ritual, saying good morning etc., etc.."
He was making a general statement. He wasn't just talking about himself and kowtaaia. Do you understand? For most (especially the "good mornings"), it's automatic, mindless.
The question is not whether ritual is mindful or not. Hopefully it is. The question is: is it superfluous or not.
Brigid
No, I do not.
Jason
The Infanta,
The reason that I disagreed with that particualr statement was that I have a problem with the word "ritual". If people are using meditation simply as a customarily repeated act, then they are doing nothing more than wasting their time. Meditation should be a purposeful act imbued with effort, mindfulness, and sustained awareness. Meditation is not just an outward show of one's faith or beliefs, it is an active process specifically designed to achieve a specific goal. It is a tool used for achieving, and examining very refined states of mind, as well as temporarily subduing the five hindrances. It is something to be used in one's practice, not merely observed out of religious law or social custom.
Jason
Rituals aren't merely things that are for observance of religious law.
My apologizes then. I was simply using the definition of "ritual" from the dictionary. Perhaps you would like to give me your personal definition of "ritual", so that way I can be clear as to how you mean it.
Also, I apologize for assuming that you were saying that meditation was a customarily repeated act. I simply inferred that conclusion from your statement that:
Followed up by:
Jason
It is a customarily repeated act. You erred by assuming that I think that that is all there is to it. You didn't seem to notice that I stated that meditation is a ritual fueled with tons of meaning, not just some tedious task done for religious conformity.
I still wouldn't agree that meditation is simply a ritual [meaningful or not]. It has nothing to do with being "customary" or "ceremonial". You can certainly make it in to that, but that is not what meditation actual is. If that is how you would define meditation, then I would just have to disagree with that definition.
Besides, kowtaaia's simply asked me question, and I merely answered.
Yea, afterwards...
Jason
Then why are we still arguing if you've already noticed me specify that it's not just something that you do?
Say what you wish, I am not here to argue with you. I was simply answering kowtaaia's question, and clarifying my reasons for such.
To be fair, however, you did say at first that "meditation is a ritual," while defining ritual as "merely a customarily repeated act, secular or not." You did not add anything else to that statement, so what else could I have assumed? If you actually meant something else, you simply were not clear in that.
Perhaps in the future, you could be clearer in your posts, so that way misunderstanding like this will not have the opportunity to arise.
Jason
Yes, I suppose I was a bit vague. I assumed that you would all know that I was not calling meditation some simple, meaningless religious observance, and I was wrong. For that I apologise.
-Eric
Is attention bound to, restricted by, tethered to the known, when it allows the past to function repetitively?
Is that better?
There was no debate. I was simply offering my opinion on the matter.
Jason
Quite honestly, your answer was a given. We agree on something.
We agree?!? Oh No!!! Is it too late to change my answer?
Jason
Sorry, kowtaaia, no. I'm still too dense to get it. I better bow out now because if I don't understand the question, I definitely won't have the answer. LOL
I'm totally lost but I wouldn't mind reading what you and Elohim discuss about it.
Regarding what Infanta and Elohim were talking about, I was thinking of ritual as anything repetitive in nature. I was thinking in terms of empty, mindless ritual vs richly meaningful, profound ritual. I got lost somewhere. (Maybe it's the meds. ...did I just say that out loud?)
Oh, well. Maybe I'll give your question another shot tomorrow.
Brigid
And everything in between.
Rituals, like everything else, are only as meaningful or meaningless as we make them. A lot of the "created" rituals were probably created or invented as carriers of meaning, but may seem empty to us because we don't see or understand the meaning they were meant to hold.
Ha, ha, ha. Funny! :grr:
Just consider the question.
Anyways, it's not a good idea to discuss it with Elohim. He might find that we agree again.
How much suffering can the lad endure? :rolleyesc
O.K. I'll try again. What was the question again?
Brigid
I believe rituals are what you make of them and that it all comes down to mindfulness.
There was a statement made here about how shaking hands is a ritual... or even the casual "How ya doin'!?" we get in the mornings.
If one isn't mindful of the ritual and what it means, I believe it becomes useless. Whether it's Communion or meditation. If you are just doing meditation because the bell rang and that's what everyone else is doing - I think it loses some of it's benefits. If you take Communion because that's what everyone else is doing - it loses it's meaning.
A handshake can become a ritual - but what about a heartfelt handshake? Where you are truly happy to see or meet someone? Hugs can be ritual - but what about being mindful of hugging this person that you've, once again, had the wonderful opportunity to see?
I believe we all come to some sort of "ritual" acceptance in our lives - what we're comfortable with. Then it comes down to how "Mindful" we are when doing these rituals as to their importance.
At least that's how I feel at 7:55 this morning.
-bf
Regards
The "difference" is on the inside and seldom obvious on the outside. Ritual is conditioned action without personal meaning. Meaningful action is that which we do to reinforce our own commitment to a given activity.
My entire meditation methodology consists of personlaized meaningful actions. To "another" it would appear to be "ritual." To the masters of my temple, they are not "ritual" -- there is nothng in the lineage methodology that is exactly the same as the actions I employ.
"Ritual" as a term is as empty as are ritual activities themselves.
Namo Amitofo
-fd-