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Should Healthcare be Free?
Argon.Aid
Veteran
My English vlass is having a debate on this topic "Should Health Care be free for all citizens of Singapore?"
Thus,I am posting this thread to find out what are the views of those around the world and I am sure that I will gain great insights into this topic.
Note: MY OPPONENT IS AJANI!!!!!!!!
Thus,I am posting this thread to find out what are the views of those around the world and I am sure that I will gain great insights into this topic.
Note: MY OPPONENT IS AJANI!!!!!!!!
0
Comments
And yet how can healthcare be really free? Everything is borne by the State, and the State is borne by the people. Is it the State's job to make the people suffer?
I hereby declare Ajani the winner!!!
So there has to be a system of contributions of some sort otherwise there won't be any money to pay for health care for anyone.
Sob..Sob..Is there anyone that supports this notion?
Lol
If you are asking WHO should pay - obviously the ideal would be free treatment and care on demand for all, paid for by a system of contributions depending on each individual's ability to pay. Thus the very wealthy pay for the health care of the very poor.
The ideal - what is NOT ideal is the two tier system in operation in the UK where a private operation can be done in days or weeks because the patient is paying out of their own pocket, whereas the same publicly-funded operation can be delayed for months or even years, despite the fact that all working adults in the UK pay into the National Health Fund.
I completely agree.
YES!! Yes, of course health care should be free! The U.S. is a great example you can use for your argument, as Genryu points out. The U.S. system gives me nightmares.
All other fundamental human rights are useless without free and proper health care for all citizens.
You can use Canada as an example of how NOT to go about it (ha ha, just kidding). Actually, I'm very proud of our health care system. All of my health care, including dental and all prescription medication, is paid for by the government because I'm poor. I wasn't born poor but apparently I was REALLY cheap in a former life.
This is not to say that there are no problems with the Canadian system, but it's definitely superior to systems in which private insurance companies hold the power over life and death. Those in Canada who wish to introduce private health care may do so by prying my health card out of my cold, dead fingers. Oh, my! Sorry! Just a little afraid now that a Conservative government has been elected in Canada. Very afraid. We are starting to have trouble with the two tier problem, like the U.K., and it's very worrisome. Free universal health care is the main reason why Canadians enjoy such a high quality of life.
You can use the French system to prove your point as they have, IMHO, one of the best systems in the world. Kuwait, I think, also has an exemplary system.
Good luck! And FREE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!! (dammit!) (Ooops! Did I say that out loud?)
Love,
Brigid :canflag:
P.S. This will be the one and ONLY time you'll EVER see me waving the Canadian flag. (I detest patriotism. ....Did I just say that out loud?) (Good thing I CAN, having both the protected fundamental right to free speech, and the healthy fingers on my hands with which to type it.) (It's such a pretty flag! Did I just...)
BUT - anyone not in the system, not insured, not having worked over here, not having the right bits of paper from their own country or in some way haven fallen through the net is left out in the cold. If they were in an accident, they would be taken to hospital and treated (unlike the USA where they search for your health insurance before your pulse!) but they would face a hefty bill afterwards.
Here we have a dual system of government reimbursement and health insurance so the costs are met by the state (75%) and large insurance companies. It makes the paperwork complicated and still means that an enormous part of my income goes on my contributions, but ... I'm not sorry because I know that if I get sick or injured I'll get the very best possible care and treatment.
I think that there should be universal subsidized healthcare for all under 19 years of age, and that that would be the place to begin. Children should not be penalized because of their parents' inability to pay.
Also, I think that the government, as a justice issue, should be made to look into subsidizing healthcare insurance for all, since those who don't have insurance are stuck with owing the entire bill, whereas those who have decent insurance often owe comparatively little, after incurring large medical bills.
I have this feeling, the older I get and the more I see, that the US has a lot of people that like the notion of "Free" but don't feel the need to contribute anything.
How can one expect something free, when they don't contribute, do not want to be responsible, etc.
What if a country decided that "food is free" - but nobody actually wanted to do the work to raise crops or cattle? Everyone just sat back and waited for the food? Well, I think all of us are intelligent enough to know that if no one does the work - there won't be any food.
The US is a joke with our health care. But you know what? It's because of it's own citizens that it's a joke. Greed, profits, desire, laziness - all of these things come into play.
The doctors have to pay for huge amounts of malpractice insurance because people sue over the smallest, most petty things (google the woman in the US who sued McDonald's because they served her hot coffee and she spilled it on herself). The insurance companies have to make huge payouts to everyone that is suing everyone. On top of that, everyone wants to make a profit - so everyone ends up paying and playing in this bizarre circus we call "Health Care" in the US.
And "free" isn't "free". I've even heard about people in countries that have socialized health care dealing with things like "they want to get to the hospital for a checkup - but they don't want to have to pay for a ride to get there - so they call an ambulence so they can get a free ride to the hospital". Is that Right Action? Is that Right Mindfulness? Is taking advantage of a system because you can and then complaining about how unfair it is to be able to use something?
-bf
But on the flip side - many, many thousands and millions of people don't treat their fellow-man with the same compassion and caring they they themselves expect or demand.
How do we handle this in a realistic way? Nature tells us that if the carnivore or herbivore is too lazy to find itself food - it dies. Why have we, as a species, developed these ideas of being to have while never contributing anything?
-bf
Doesn't sound Right Wing to me BF - but for a country to look after its citizens, they have to agree to look after each other, accepting responsibility, each paying for those less well-off than themselves.
And of course the people that abuse the system don't help. Just recently we have had to introduce the UK notion of being registered with a GP and having to see that particular one and only the GP being able to refer to specialists.
This is because before, we had a free market system and one could consult any GP in the area, make appointments with specialists etc - which resulted in the system paying for the same person to see four or five different GPs for the same complaint or going to see specialists when it wasn't necessary.
BF,
Again you understanding of social compassion seem's sometimes very limited. I firmly believe in " from the cradle to the grave".
We all have a responsiblity to care for those who are in need. It amazes me how people in the states want their cake and eat it. You need to pay more fuel tax, you need more corperation tax and you need to double taxation of the top 5% for US earners.
Darwin believed that we are all continually evolving. It seems America is stuck in those difficult teenage years.
You need to grow up as a country.
HH
Until you start giving all of your money, earning, property, sweat and labor away to take care of everyone else - I believe it should be hard for you to criticize others.
I do think America has a lot of growing up to do as a country. And if we're still in our teenage years, many other "civilized countries" must still be in their terrible two's.
-bf
After thinking about it, why should I care that Herman thinks I'm very limited in my scope of thinking or that the country I live in needs to do a lot of growing up.
Maybe I am limited in my scope of thinking.
Maybe we do need to grow up.
While not intending to seem pretentious to Herman's comments, I may have come off that way which is not my intention.
My apologies if my response seemed.... .... ... short.
-bf
Ditto for Japan...
I guess the NHS isn't as bad as it's made out to be!
For those who are unable to work, like me, and are dependent on the welfare system and/or worker's disability compensation, we get free dental and drugs as well as the same free services outlined above.
I've been paying into the social services system since I was 14 years old. And now that I'm disabled I'm being taken care of pretty well. Now mind you, my monthly income is $500 a month, which is a combined income from worker's disability insurance and welfare. And that's because I live with my parents. I would receive about $1,000 a month if I wasn't living at home. And I've applied for Ontario Disability Services, which is another separate fund for the disabled, and that could bring in around $700 a month if I qualify (fingers crossed!).
So, all in all, it's a pretty financially tight situation, but I'm being taken care of pretty well and my needs are few. I don't go out at all to restaurants or movies or anything like that. And I have an antenna for my TV with 5 channels (two of which are PBS!), no cable or satellite. And slow dial up internet. But I only need one meal a day because I'm so sedentary that I just don't have more of an appetite and I don't need fancy clothes or cosmetics. Or a car, since I can't drive anymore.
I consider myself to be extremely privileged in comparison to most of the world's population. I'm much happier now than I was when I had more money because life is simpler and I have less to worry about. I'm content and very grateful to have all I have. I've seen slums and shanty towns in many places in the world and I live like a princess by comparison. It's all good.
Brigid
You make one of the points I was thinking about.
You've been paying into this social service since you were 14.
Now, you have a disability which keeps you from working.
You just didn't decide that you were tired of working and now were going to spend your life trying to figure out how you were going to get "something" from others by doing "nothing".
You contributed to this program - which I think is a good program. I think a portion of why we are taxed should go towards providing for our own health care AND for those who can't provide for themselves.
And for those that are too lazy to participate in something that is good for society as a whole - what about them?
Maybe we should all get paychecks from the government for doing nothing. I'm sure the money will just magically appear.
-bf
There is no need to surrender, I think we may have gotten off topic from the original question about Singapore.
It is my belief a civilized society should take care of their own. Oddly enough, "uncivilized" societies have been doing this for ages. The family structure and taking care of "one's own" has been something many tribes have done for ages - and yet we call ourselves civilized... ?
I think the side point being made here is: there are very few things that are for free. So, everyone needs to realize that everyone needs to participate to make these kinds of things work.
Otherwise, the gap between the "have's" and the "have nots" will continue to widen.
-bf
Also, for the people who don't want to do anything but want to get cheques from the government, as you can see from my income, it's not very attractive. It's low, to say the least. But there is a welfare culture in which one generation after another gets caught in the welfare trap, especially because there are child benefit cheques involved. That problem needs dealing with. But it's more complicated than people just being lazy. It has to do with all the issues surrounding poverty including education, depression, addiction etc. it's a huge problem and quite complex. I guess that's why we haven't sorted it out yet. LOL
Ajani,
I don't think the size of Singapore is a detriment to a health care system. In fact, I think you'll find that a system of this sort works BETTER on a smaller scale rather than a large one. That's one of the reasons why Canadian health care is left largely in the hands of the individual provinces and not the federal government.
BF,
Those are a minority of the population. Why are you always distracted by these negatives. No system is without it's problems. But think of the bigger picture. The US IS the most econically developed country in the world. It can't even be minded to feed it's poor and care for it's sick.
Maybe we should all get paychecks from the government for doing nothing. I'm sure the money will just magically appear.
I explained the economic reality. The US needs to tax the super rich double ( Top 5% earners) of course that by the civilised answer to health care but completely un American.
Please stop watching Fox news before it's too late for us all.
HH
I think that it is important to have affordable health care for everyone. I like it coming through our taxes where those who earn more pay more and those who earn less pay less.
I don't think that there is an ideal system but I think that it is best not to be a private system where the ability to access health care is determined by the ability to pay for the care or for insurance.
HH,
Thank you for your insight. It sounds like you have the solution that we need here in the US.
I don't know what to say about your comments - but I wish you well.
-bf
"From each according to ability, to each according to need."
The health and education of a nation are measures by which we judge how 'civilised' or 'advanced' it may be. If these are the private possession of the rich and powerful, we see a nation rotting from below. It cannot long survive.
I have been contributing (from a paycheck) since I was 16.
Presently, I earn too little to pay for my own insurance (private sectors offer little contribution), but too much to qualify for social services that I have been paying into.
Health care, ease of suffering, food, shelter - things like this should be available for all. And this goes for all countries. I know this sounds somewhat "pie in the sky" but there is enough wealth in the world that basic human needs should be taken care of.
But, I have a feeling it won't happen in the US much less worldwide...
-bf
And I'm privvy to the insurance costs the company pays for our employees - which happens to increase between 13% and 18% a year...
-bf
I don't think that's pie in the sky at all. I think it's true.
It's about redistribution of wealth and political will.
SharpieGirl,
I was in that position myself for years and it's extremely uncomfortable. I wondered if I was going to have to lose everything just to get some help. Research it before you get into any difficulties. There may be resources you don't know about. I imagine the majority of Americans are in your position. There must be some help somewhere.
Brigid
This is what we call the "poverty trap": too poor to manage but too well-off to qualify for benefit. It is the inevitable outcome of means testing. If the old 80/20 rule applies, free healthcare would only be 'wasted' on 20% of those applying. 80% would be in need. The greatest good for the greater number!
For those of us who have some fondness for our Christian roots, it may be worthwhile looking again at a very significant aspect of the New Testament: Jesus declares that he has been 'sent to free the captives, give sight to the blind and to comfort the afflicted'. It is also part of the mythos that, at the Great Day of Judgment, the nations shall be judged. How will my nation fare when summoned to the Mercy Seat: will we have healed the sick? Will we have freed the captive? Will we have comforted those who mourn? Will we Hell!
From your last post about "judge the nations", I'm afraid to say that England is screwed.
So it America... but England... ay! Big trouble...
-bf
Years ago, English Catholics were urged to pray "for the conversion of England". Conversion/metanoia requires a recognition of how unskillfully we have acted and what is called "a firm purpose of amendment". It was in the hope that my country could act ethically that I support unilateral disarmament. I believe that we cannot be taken seriously as peace-makers if we tool up for war.
As I have said before, I believe that we inherit our parents' unpaid debts. Even if there is no ultimate judge of the nations, there will be historians of the future and there are our children: they will judge us, weigh us in the balance and find us wanting.
What saddens me is that we never seem to learn. As power passes from nation to nation, the same mistakes and evils arise. Kipling tried to warn the US about the perils of imperial influence. And some of us continue to do so: we have seen the results of Empire. We know it corrupts the will of the conquerors, reduces client states to poverty and ends in tears. We were, in turn, warned but took no notice.
Pride, however, as the Preacher tells us, goes before a great fall. We are still falling: the bottom is much further down and we are still falling. There may be time, still, to save the Revolutionary ideal that underpins the US experiment but, as with global warming, it may already be too late. One thing that I have seen, as a result of my practice perhaps or perhaps not, is that it is no exaggeration to say that we are born to trouble as sparks fly upwards.
I feel that you are ~completely~ aware of this. These sort of sentiments ring throughout your posts on a weekly, if not daily, basis.
But, I believe that you may be taking too much upon yourself.
I honestly don't know what will happen. Men have said that we will be judged. Maybe we will. Maybe not.
Maybe we're here for a brief time to do the best that we can. And, like you, I hope that our realizations of what we do today is not to late for the world we're leaving behind for tomorrow.
-bf