Question on fate

bodhi66

What is the buddhist position on fate? Was the buddha destined to became the buddha? The way I understand it is that once we start the path of the dharma (creating good karma, lovingkindness, etc) that this continues in the next lives until we reach enlightenment. Is this true? As it relates to me, I'm wondering if it was fate that lead me to Buddhism.

Cloud

Fate is pre-determination. In Buddhism, this does not take place. Rather each moment is determined by the moment proceeding it. In other words, events are determined by the conditions of each moment, rather than pre-determined (which means, "fate" is a no-go as we understand it).

driedleaf

Fate leaves little room for hope. I believe that there are no limits to wisdom and skillfulness (karmic wholesomeness).

gekko

This leads to another question: when creating bad karma, are you creating some "fate" that will happen as a result of our past action?

Cloud

Not fate, but probability. You're creating conditions that may ripen as unwholesome results. It would be a different type of fate to call it that. It's what karma is... our choices and the results that come of them. If we know what's skillful and what's unskillful, we can condition the future to be a more wholesome place for ourselves and others.

Some acts lead to immediate results. Some lead to future results. Some may never lead to results. It's this unpredictability that differs karma and its effects from any kind of "fate". Not everything that we do matters, but we can't know what will and what won't. It's our intentional thoughts, speech and actions that we can control, if we recognize what is skillful (compassion and non-violence etc.).

By choosing to act skillfully, we are directing our lives toward the betterment of ourselves and others. Everything is in the melting pot together, selfless and transient, and so "fate" can not be attached to a singular "being", it is the result of conditioning and is intertwined with everything else.

vinlyn

Fate is pre-determination. In Buddhism, this does not take place. Rather each moment is determined by the moment proceeding it. In other words, events are determined by the conditions of each moment, rather than pre-determined (which means, "fate" is a no-go as we understand it).

Hmmmmmmmmm. How does that fit into a Buddhist sect selecting the next leader when he's only a young child?

Cloud

@vinlyn Dunno, it's probably a "tradition"-al thing. As far as I understand, those traditions believe in literal reincarnation. They believe that the child is of the same lifestream as their previous leader, and they perform certain tests that satisfy them that this is so. It is their view that such a child has been born, or reborn, purposely by the previous leader's will so that they can come back for the good of others.

driedleaf

Fate definitely does exist, but only those choose not cultivate merit and good deeds are bound by it. That's what I believe.

Theswingisyellow

I would say that fate does not exist. Outcomes happen as a result of choices we make now, causes and conditions and to a certain extent luck. Make different choices, change your outlook and you will engender different results.

bodhi66

Not fate, but probability. You're creating conditions that may ripen as unwholesome results. It would be a different type of fate to call it that. It's what karma is... our choices and the results that come of them. If we know what's skillful and what's unskillful, we can condition the future to be a more wholesome place for ourselves and others.

Some acts lead to immediate results. Some lead to future results. Some may never lead to results. It's this unpredictability that differs karma and its effects from any kind of "fate". Not everything that we do matters, but we can't know what will and what won't. It's our intentional thoughts, speech and actions that we can control, if we recognize what is skillful (compassion and non-violence etc.).

By choosing to act skillfully, we are directing our lives toward the betterment of ourselves and others. Everything is in the melting pot together, selfless and transient, and so "fate" can not be attached to a singular "being", it is the result of conditioning and is intertwined with everything else.

@cloud - thanks this is very helpful.

Temporary_arising

Seriously guys. Stop believing things and just look. After all, that's what practicing buddhism is.
Can you find a separate thinker that thinks thoughts, or do thoughts just arise?
Can you find a separate chooser, or are there just thoughts in relation to what appear to be possibilities?
When you SEE that there is no separate conscious thinker or chooser, the illusion of choice will disappear.
You will SEE that there is only cause and effect, hence pre determination.

Cloud

You will SEE that there is only cause and effect, hence pre determination.

I would only disagree with calling it "pre-determination" as this can be taken the wrong way. Pre-determination implies a plan, a design, a goal that is put in motion by some intelligence or force. No such plan or purpose is evident to us, but it is evident that each new moment is determined by the conditions of the previous moment, and so we can know that our reality is "determined" or "conditioned", but not "pre-determined". Observing our ever-changing reality, we can see that all conditioned phenomena must be impermanent and selfless, and see how suffering arises in the mind without clarity.

I agree about cause and effect. Conditionality is a great Buddhist term, AKA Dependent Origination. The only escape from conditionality is to be empty, that there is no being or "I" separating/solidifying itself or going "against the stream" of nature. Only emptiness. No human, no man or woman, no good or evil, no pleasure or pain, only full and clear comprehension of each moment arising and passing due to conditions. Fleeting. Selfless. Not to be grasped.

Temporary_arising

Due to conditionality everything is technically pre determined. Not by an outside entity but by everything that came before it.
If somebody or something were able to know all factors, the future could be foretold.

Cloud

If you say that this moment was determined by the one before, and the one before determined by the one before that, for as far as we can think, I agree. But "pre" supposes a beginning and an end. Some starting point has to be when the "pre"-determination began. When did it begin? What is its end? That is isolating one moment and calling it the beginning of everything to come, but how could there be a beginning if there was nothing before? Do you see?

Most people view pre-determination a certain way, just like they view "sin" a certain way. Both words can be troublesome. Anyway I gotta go... think it over. Conditioned reality is Buddhism in a Nutshell, and Conditioned = Determined. We don't call it Pre-Conditioning, so we shouldn't call it Pre-Determination.

Temporary_arising

I agree with what you're saying. I guess it's just semantics.
To branch out a little for anybody reading this, once you know that things will always be as they were always going to be, can you also now clearly see why desire for things to be different than they are can only ever cause suffering?
Acceptance is the key to contentment.

Cloud

Bingo. Didn't end up leaving right away, but am leaving soon. Glad we're agreed there are semantic issues. I completely agree with everything else you've just said. This is why the idea of free will has no ground upon which to stand. It's like what Ajahn Chah says about carrying around a burden needlessly... we become attached to that burden, and if someone tells us we can set it down we respond "but then I'd have nothing!". We often make beliefs the cornerstone of our understanding about who we are, and fear that to waver in that belief will somehow destroy us; we are completely wrong. It will liberate us from the burden and allow us to pursue the truth.