samatha / vipassana

shanyin

how come everytime I read about what vipassana is the author always says it's seeing things as they are, not concentration. I mean, he did talk about sort of mentally labeling phenomena and such but on a seperate page he gave a vipassana technique of focusing on the breath while mentally noting in and out.

Just seems like I keep reading that, like in Mindfulness in Plain English and Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond.

it makes it seems like theres all out samatha, quasi samatha vipassana, and some vipassana that nobody wants to teach lol.

On that note, it's agreed right that Siddhartha Gotama Buddha reached enlightemnet doing anapanasati... but a monk I met told me that vipassana is necessary for enlightenmnt.

Paradoxical?

shanyin

http://diydharma.org/how-meditate

Cloud

Samatha is the calming of the mind, the tranquility. Vipassana is the contemplation, the mindfulness of the arising and falling of phenomena that leads to insight. They're both necessary; they complete each other. It's like picking up a stick... with one end comes the other, you can't just pick one end up!

Most forms of insight meditation are only externally different. They all focus on what's really going on inside the mind, and that's how we see the truth of what the mind actually is, how it actually works and why there is no self evident in the process.

DhammaDhatu

Just seems like I keep reading that, like in Mindfulness in Plain English and Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond.

it makes it seems like theres all out samatha, quasi samatha vipassana, and some vipassana that nobody wants to teach lol.

Paradoxical?

i already posted the link below the said 'teacher' just creates confusion

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12140/the-difference-between-mindfulness-and-concentration#Item_11

there is no paradox....the said 'teacher' is simply confused

DhammaDhatu

Vipassana is the contemplation, the mindfulness of the arising and falling of phenomena that leads to insight.

vipassana & mindfulness are incorrectly being used synonymously above

i already set this straight on this thread

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12140/the-difference-between-mindfulness-and-concentration#Item_11

Vipassana is insight

Vipassana is the 'clear seeing' of the arising and falling of phenomena

Cloud

There's mindfulness and then there's meditative mindfulness. In either case, it's a form of awareness of arising and passing. The word "awareness" could be inserted where I used "mindfulness" if that makes it more clear. Really it's all meditation but we choose to do it in different ways and at different depths, which is why we can have walking meditation and sitting meditation and so forth.

We say that we practice Vipassana, not that we gain Vipassana.
We say that we gain insight, not that we practice insight.
It's more confusing to call Vipassana "insight" than not.
Better perhaps to call it "insight practice" or "insight meditation".

DhammaDhatu

mentally labeling phenomena

mentally labelling phenomena is not vipassana

vipassana = "clear seeing"

vipassana = seeing (and not thinking/labelling)

mental noting is very useful but it is just a preliminary technique

the Pali word that come closest to what this mental labelling technique is seeking to acheive is "sampajañña" or "clear comprehension"

sampajañña has at least four aspects to it and its most basic aspect is to see basic objects in themselves, that is, body as 'body', feeling as 'feeling', greed as 'greed', anger as 'anger', breath as 'breath', etc

and such but on a seperate page he gave a vipassana technique of focusing on the breath while mentally noting in and out

this is not vipassana...this is brainwashing oneself

the breath by its nature goes in and out

vipassana is seeing this, without no special effort to mentally note it

the mind must have a right concentration (pure, stable, flexible) mind to see clearly

'noting' reifies the impermanence and thus does really lead to the result of vipassana, which is dispassion & relinquishment

Just seems like I keep reading that, like in Mindfulness in Plain English and Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond

whilst Mindfulness in Plain English would say this, are you sure Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond instructs in the same way?

it makes it seems like theres all out samatha, quasi samatha vipassana, and some vipassana that nobody wants to teach lol

"lol" is an understatement...the monk is confused, as i suggested

On that note, it's agreed right that Siddhartha Gotama Buddha reached enlightemnet doing anapanasati but a monk I met told me that vipassana is necessary for enlightenmnt

give the monk my email dhammadhatu@bigpond.com and i will sort him out

Anapanasati is both samatha & vipassana

steps 3, 7 & 9 of Anapanasati are vipassana

steps 12, 14, 15 & 16 of Anapanasati are 100% vipassana

good luck

DD

DhammaDhatu

steps 12, 14, 15 & 16 of Anapanasati are 100% vipassana

woops! steps 13, 14, 15 & 16 of Anapanasati are 100% vipassana

DhammaDhatu

SN 48.10
PTS: S v 197

CDB ii 1671

Indriya-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of the Mental Faculties

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 1997–2011

"Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment.

"Now what is the faculty of conviction? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called the faculty of conviction.

"And what is the faculty of persistence? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. He generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... [and] for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This is called the faculty of persistence.

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration.

"And what is the faculty of discernment [panna; wisdom]? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.

"These are the five faculties."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html

DhammaDhatu

MN 117
PTS: M iii 71

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 2008–2011

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

DhammaDhatu

What is sammasati (right mindfulness)?

Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting.

This is what is called sammasati.

[Vbh.105, 286]

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/s-sati1.htm#Sammasati

DhammaDhatu

Paradoxical?

hi Shanyin

if one wishes to learn Dhamma clearly & logically, one must learn from teachers that actually understand the Dhamma

for example, the monk below (myself, though not a teacher) really understands what mindfulness is (and what other dhammas are)

good luck

DhammaDhatu

We say that we practice Vipassana, not that we gain Vipassana.

Who or what is this "we"?

The Buddha said:

For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html

DhammaDhatu

the Buddha said:

Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html

DhammaDhatu

There's mindfulness and then there's meditative mindfulness. In either case, it's a form of awareness of arising and passing.

the stock phrase on Right Mindfulness is as follows:

he observes (anupassi) body in & of itself — ardent, clearly comprehending (sampajanna) & mindful (sati) — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He observes feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... dhammas in & of themselves — ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness

COMMENTARY:

the experience of observing or experiencing is not mindfulness. it is anupassi or seeing directly

the experience of clearly comprehending is not mindfulness. it is sampajanna, having clarity of vision of the meditation object - seeing the body as body for example

the act of mindfulness is remembering. it is remembering (whatever method you use) to remain observing of the objects of meditation rather than wandering off elsewhere

the act of mindfulness is also to remember to ensure the mind is putting aside covetousness & distress with reference to the world (the objects of meditation)

so "awareness" or "observation" is not mindfulness

mindfulness is the mental function the remembers to be aware or observant

it remembers to watch the body/breath, feelings, mental states & higher reality and to let go of liking & disliking, craving, self-cherishing and other dangerous ignorances

regards

shanyin

I can't be sure about Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond but I think for sure the other one did. Teachers say to practice vipassana focus on your breath. I mean, the guy who wrote this:

We recommend this vipassana technique for everyone. Adopt one of the sitting postures. If you are disabled or have a chronic illness you can do the exercise lying down.

Next, direct your attention to the abdomen, an inch or two above the navel. Find the point that seems clearest to you. Don't actually look at the spot; just place your mind there. The point should lie along the vertical midline of the body.

Is like alot of other people who say to practice vipassana and then it bassically goes into something like that which is the same instruction to me that a samatha meditation is.

DD tahnk you so much, I havn't read most of your posts yet because it's alot of stuff to process at 4 am especially when it's suttas. I've been going through hardship lately mentally with coming off medication and I'm so restless (probably clinical akethesia) I just want to calm my mind down. So yeah hard to process right now.

i think I should move and find a teacher. I think I used to practice vipassana but I don't remember anything about it, other than that I'd focus on my nostril tip and call it samatha.

Thanks too cloud,

be well.

shanyin

Bless you DD :P

I'll be back tommorow.

DhammaDhatu

so, my rant is not about "technicalities"

it is about seeing exactly what one is practising

for example, the eye sees a tree automatically

we do not say that we practice "seeing a tree"

all we do is point the eye in a certain direction and the eye sees the tree automatically

similarly, mindfulness is that function of mind that points the stream of awareness or consciousness in a certain direction

the stream of awareness or consciousnes automatically sees the meditation object

we do not say that we practice "vipassana" or "clear seeing"

the clear seeing happens automatically when the mind is developed and pointed in the right direction

good luck

DhammaDhatu

DD tahnk you so much, I havn't read most of your posts yet...

that's OK...most of my posts are responding to Cloud...regards