Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
At the risk of stepping on Buddhafoot's toes, Horaku... here is the scripture reference for that quotation....
Dhammapada v. 124
and this is where I found it..... (It's almost at the bottom, but reading the whole thing gives a wonderful lesson....the whole discourse is heart-warming and salutary....)
Thanks a lot. Why did that have to be a problem in some quarters?.
Welcome to our Sangha... What brings you here?
Well, I've been agitating for an "American Buddhism" forum for probably seven years, to no effect at all. This title is close enough, and it is also the title of the news page on my site (URL in my profile).
It has become clear to me that I myself am not the kind of person who administers or moderates a board. I am more of a writer that works better, for group purposes, with an editor.
That means, yes, sugar plum pie, you can slap my hand, and it probably stays slapped. But, OTH, what I do on my own site is my own affair, and the others can just make their peace with it.
Yes, I'm going to rant on my own site. Yeesh! The jealousy!
Oh, and hey, I like your new avatar. It seems a little more you somehow. But I think you're still growing.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Being that the reference was part of my sig and I didn't notice for awhile that a question had been asked of me - I took no offense at Fede taking the time to answer your question.
I know that this wasn't addressed to me per se, but since I'm here I would like to offer my perspective on this.
The statement that a good teacher actually gives a student nothing at all might also be better understood if we first understand what the purpose of the Path really is. The purpose of the Path, if understood correctly, is not to gain anything, but to ultimately let everything go. What we unknowingly try to cling and hold onto simply becomes our burden. Everything that we learn from the Suttas and gain from our meditation practice is used to eventually guide us towards Release. Release from what? From these ten things:
Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. - AN X.81
A skillful teacher will lead one to abandon unwholesome actions, abandon the five hindrances, abandon views and positions of self, relinquish attachments, uproot greed, hatred, and delusion, and lay down the burden of the the five clinging-aggregates. If they have taught well, then there will be absolutely nothing left to give up; for at the end of the Path, even the knowledge that was gained for achieving the Goal is itself to be abandoned. As the Buddha himself said:
"I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." - MN 22
So, it could also be in reference to this that it is said:
A good teacher actually gives a student nothing at all.
Since "gives" and "nothing" is a little odd, perhaps they can just be cut all together. And since "good" and "bad" are useless, we have a very nice, zen-like statement:
Since "gives" and "nothing" is a little odd, perhaps they can just be cut all together. And since "good" and "bad" are useless, we have a very nice, zen-like statement:
A teacher.
Oh yeah?!
The great Zen master Obaku/Huang Po sat before his monks one day and said, "There is no such thing as a Zen teacher." One of his monks said, "But master, how can you say such a thing when you are sitting right here in front of us?" Obaku replied, "I said there was no such thing as a Zen teacher. I did not say there was no such thing as Zen."
You know...these kinds of posts are exactly why I went tantric. You Zen types make me squirrelly.
LOL! I'm with you, Harlan. Vajrayana is a better fit for my particular personality and the way I cogitate and come to an understanding. It's visceral to me. Although I love Zen, it's not always the most helpful way for me to reach clear understanding.
LOL! I'm with you, Harlan. Vajrayana is a better fit for my particular personality and the way I cogitate and come to an understanding. It's visceral to me. Although I love Zen, it's not always the most helpful way for me to reach clear understanding.
Not1Not2,
I'm LOVING those squirrels! LMAO!
Brigid
The approach of Zen emphasizes direct perception of the emptiness of all dharmas (objects or identifiables) and prajnaparamita (perfection of wisdom). Here we see the picture of squirrels having a lightsaber battle. But Zen asks, "what is this picture before we know about squirrels, lightsabers, battles and pictures?" What is this perception that we provisionally call 'squirrels having a lightsaber battle' before discrimination, contact and perception?? By developing 'Enquiry' in such a matter we see the whole picture of paticca sumappada (dependent co-arising) in one glance as well as shunya (emptiness).
In other words, in cultivating this awareness, we begin to see both sides of the coin of thusness. We are seeing the whole picture rather than just the initial appearance/manifestation as apprehended by the discriminitive mind.
A monk, taking a bamboo stick, said to the people,
"If you call this a stick, you fall into the trap of words,
but if you do not call it a stick, you contradict facts.
So what do you call it?"
At that time a monk in the assembly came forth.
He snatched the stick, broke it in two, and threw the pieces
across the room.
When I said, 'no giving, no taking' I simply mean that Zen cannot be given or received. Those are concepts (mental elaborations/discriminations) that have no fundamental reality. If you are still attached to the ideas of 'giving' and 'taking' then you have not seen Zen.
Hope that didn't just confuse you more. Does this make any sense? It's so hard to convey.
The approach of Zen emphasizes direct perception of the emptiness of all dharmas (objects or identifiables) and prajnaparamita (perfection of wisdom). Here we see the picture of squirrels having a lightsaber battle. But Zen asks, "what is this picture before we know about squirrels, lightsabers, battles and pictures?" ...
Hope that didn't just confuse you more. Does this make any sense? It's so hard to convey.
_/\_
metta
Sure it makes sense. It's a picture of duelling squirrels.
and what is the best way to find a good one? I feel a good Buddhist teacher would be so helpful, but I am not really sure how to locate one.
Kim
In my undoubtedly not humble enough opinion, at some stages in a Buddhist path, you need a teacher, and at others you don't, with the exception of the Tantra, which never works at any stage without a teacher.
If you can't find a valid teacher, or find yourself perpetually attracted to teachers who just don't teach you effectively, it means you've got basics to learn, and your teacher just won't show up until you master them. There's a lot of that in Buddhism, compared to other paths, I feel. It's set up with a lot of infrastructure, such as a written Dharma, which is there to make it easier on the teachers.
When the student is ready, the Teacher appears. (non-canonical proverb, common to all spiritual paths).
In my undoubtedly not humble enough opinion, at some stages in a Buddhist path, you need a teacher, and at others you don't, with the exception of the Tantra, which never works at any stage without a teacher.
If you can't find a valid teacher, or find yourself perpetually attracted to teachers who just don't teach you effectively, it means you've got basics to learn, and your teacher just won't show up until you master them. There's a lot of that in Buddhism, compared to other paths, I feel. It's set up with a lot of infrastructure, such as a written Dharma, which is there to make it easier on the teachers.
When the student is ready, the Teacher appears. (non-canonical proverb, common to all spiritual paths).
Horaku,
Great post. It has cleared up a lot of questions I had in a really clear, concise way.
Hello Sangha,
Billiards, music, Buddhism, "Perfect practice makes perfect".
I want to get this right. I'm new at this.
Not that you people aren't wonderfull, you are. Its just that I think someone full of Samsara like me would do best with some actual face time with a Buddhist Monk. So far I've relied on alot of books, and this web-site. I even have some audio tapes of HHDL teaching the Dharma on the way. But Buddha said to support the Sangha. (Monk=homeless). He also said to question, and choose your teacher carefully. Something I read said up to 12 years to be sure of your teacher.
I also think that Buddhism can help the world, that I could have saved many lifetimes if I had known about it. (In truth the only thing I understand about reincarnation is that I dont like it.) I guess it's considered rude to solicit for converts, but I wish I had discovered The Teaching of Buddha at 12 instead of 42. The whole Lutheran thing just wasn't logical enough for me.
So what to do?
Buddha's birthday is coming up, there is a temple with 2 monks just 50 miles away. We even have a real live Tibetan Cultural Center in my State of Indiana USA. That is where the tapes are coming from.
I think I should go and help if I can.
You don't have 12 years. So what are you going to do?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
"The Trouble with people is they think they HAVE time....."
(Lama Surya Das.)
The only moment available to us to pay attention, and in which to accomplish anything, is the one we are ever in, 'at present'.
If you perpetually delay, you will always perpetually delay.
I thought Simplelayperson was talking about not delaying any longer and that one should still be questioning one's teacher even after twelve years.
I don't understand what you guys are referring to. I just woke up. I mean, from sleeping. I mean, from regular sleeping.
It sounded like Simplelayperson has decided to start looking for a teacher. Me, too. I just have to be able to travel for 1 hour by train and about 20 minutes by car. Can't wait!
And I agree. I just think that anyone who suggests to a student that they should spend 12 years evaluating a teacher is doing them a grave disservice. The problem is that many of us do think we have time, if not now then in another life, and it's a myth.
Yes, I'm really starting to understand the importance of getting it done NOW. There really isn't any time to waste, is there?
I'm glad I don't feel as if my past has been a waste of time. I feel that it took me this long to get here for whatever reasons. But now that I've heard the Dharma and can appreciate it there are no excuses for delay. Any time procrastinating WILL be a waste from here on out.
Hello Sangha,
Dear ZMG,
I guess I'm just complaining about western culture. We're fixin to move into Amish country this year. I spent the day with the 2 year old grandson and he spoke Dutch most all day. The wife is devout Christian. There is not alot of support for Buddhism around here, and I need all the help I can get.(My most humble thanks to all on this site).
I want to honor Buddha, but I'm not even sure how to pronounce the important words of his teachings. Spoken by a Monk would make a big impression. I think I may want to go for refuge.
I know I have many many many lifetimes to go, but I also read that one of the best ways to honor your parents is to help them know Buddha. (my take, from Buddhism in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom) My Mom is definitely someone I would like to see reborn to a higher life. She's 73 and doing well but not great. I've had questions from other people as well about Buddhism. I want to get it right for them as well as for my Mom and for me.
I resolve to call the Temple and arange a visit. Its only 50 miles one way, not nearly as bad as Brigid's trip.
Hello Sangha,
An Open Heart by HHDL, page 41
"It is said that one should be willing to scrutinize a teacher for as long as twelve years to ensure he or she is qualified. I don't think that this is time wasted. On the contrary, the more clearly we come to see the qualities of a teacher, the more valuable he or she is to us. If we are hasty and devote ourselves to someone unqualified, the results are often disastrous. So, take time to scrutinize your potential teachers, be they Buddhist or of some other faith."
Hello Sangha,
Dear ZMG,
I guess I'm just complaining about western culture. We're fixin to move into Amish country this year. I spent the day with the 2 year old grandson and he spoke Dutch most all day. The wife is devout Christian. There is not alot of support for Buddhism around here, and I need all the help I can get.(My most humble thanks to all on this site).
I want to honor Buddha, but I'm not even sure how to pronounce the important words of his teachings. Spoken by a Monk would make a big impression.
OK, here they are spoken (or written at least) by a monk. Sit when you can, give yourself completely to what is in front of you now, be gentle with yourself, don't confuse concepts with reality too much and don't discuss Buddhism with others who aren't Buddhist for at least 5 years. Now those words I think you can pronounce perfectly.
I think I may want to go for refuge.
The outer ceremony is a recognition of something that's already happened. If that's the case then this can most certainly be arranged.
I know I have many many many lifetimes to go
You only have here and now. Everything else is a delusion.
but I also read that one of the best ways to honor your parents is to help them know Buddha.
If you awaken, that will affect all that you come in contact with. That is the best way to honor the Buddha.
... I resolve to call the Temple and arange a visit. Its only 50 miles one way, not nearly as bad as Brigid's trip.
Hello Sangha,
ZMG What makes Zen Buddhism different from the other schools?
The Monks at this temple are Sri Lankan Theravada Buddhists. Would you have any advise on etiquette, or maners, or custom or whatever ?
You are not that far from me either, I hope to find myself in a moment where I can sit with you someday.
My humble thanks.
As to your question - in brief, and subject to the corrections of those with more experience of the different traditions, Zen emphasises awakening in daily life. In daily practice it emphasises meditation, working with a teacher who has him or herself awakened, spontaneity and awareness. It also sees the spirit of the Dharma and the experience of awakening as being paramount, rather than texts or rigid clinging to tradition.
The Theravada is very close in terms of daily practice to Zen, but has more of an emphasis on preserving the Dharma as it is contained as a formal body of teachings in the Pali Canon. Some would say that the Theravada is a more 'gradual' path, with a strong monastic element, while Zen is more about awakening in this life, though that too has a strong monastic core. In Zen though, monks/priests/nuns, whatever you want to call them do not generally stay in monasteries all the time, but take their training into the world and particularly after awakening are encouraged to manifest that awakening in the world.
The Vajrayana tradition of Tibetan Buddhism generally emphasises meditation, study, working intimately with a teacher and the transformation of delusion into enlightenment and is full of vigour and color. It is also seen as a direct or 'sudden' path to awakening. The distinctions of sudden and gradual enlightenment though are pretty much just conventions - in reality, there are many years of training in whichever tradition of Buddhism one practices, both before and after awakening, and the core of all genuinely Buddhist traditions is the same - the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, meditation, mindfulness and working with the mind and body as they are.
As for etiquette in Theravada - I'm sure others here can add more than I can, but the only really big no no I can think of is that of letting your feet point towards a monk or nun when you sit down on the floor or on a cushion. So it's considered respectful not to let the soles of one's feet face a monk or nun deliberately. Also, Theravada monks are not permitted to be alone in a room with a woman with the door closed, to eat after noon - apart from sweets, or to handle money without express permission, so if one is giving an offering, there is generally a Dana bowl where money or offerings can be put, rather than handing money directly to a monk or nun. Theravada monks are also not supposed to gassho or wai to lay people (though there are one or two teachers who find this rule somewhat inappropriate), so if you wai and it is not returned by a Theravadin monk, please don't take offense. Just remember that they're human beings, relax and you'll be fine.
The Vajrayana tradition of Tibetan Buddhism generally emphasises meditation, study, working intimately with a teacher and the transformation of delusion into enlightenment and is full of vigour and color.
Genryu,
That's a beautiful description and although I'm so new it describes it exactly how I see it, full of vigour and colour.
Sometimes the Zen tradition seems, on the surface at least, very black and white, even down to aesthetics and it's possible to get 'stuck' in that approach too. Which is one reason why I hung a colourful 6 ft Japanese hanging scroll - of which this is a part:
on the wall, directly in front of where one person who comes to meditate sits. I think you'll agree that this will be very hard to look through, as one normally does when facing the wall. He's just beginning to find that things are clicking, and to 'see with his ears, hear with his eyes', as the saying has it. Now that he thinks he's getting it, beginning to get into a personal thing of black and white, facing the wall and straight lines - the timing seems appropriate, and this week we'll be facing inward and he'll have another large hanging scroll directly opposite him. This one being of Kanzeon Bosatsu:
Just a side note on the 12 year issue. I don't think that His Holiness meant that you should refrain from having teachers for 12 years. Certainly that would be quite ridiculous. Teachers are wonderful. What I believe he was stating is that we should not undertake a Lama/disciple relationship of Guru-devotion without having researched for a considerable length of time. The manner of teaching in this relationship is very direct and leaves one very open and vulnerable. Entering into such a relationship without undertaking the proper research into the conduct, learning and realization of a Master is setting oneself up for the possibility of major spiritual damage. According to what I've heard, it could take kalpas before the damage is undone. Better to take it slow, learn as much as possible, practice as much as possible and such before undertaking the higher aspects of Vajrayana practices.
Just a side note on the 12 year issue. I don't think that His Holiness meant that you should refrain from having teachers for 12 years. Certainly that would be quite ridiculous. Teachers are wonderful. What I believe he was stating is that we should not undertake a Lama/disciple relationship of Guru-devotion without having researched for a considerable length of time. The manner of teaching in this relationship is very direct and leaves one very open and vulnerable. Entering into such a relationship without undertaking the proper research into the conduct, learning and realization of a Master is setting oneself up for the possibility of major spiritual damage. According to what I've heard, it could take kalpas before the damage is undone. Better to take it slow, learn as much as possible, practice as much as possible and such before undertaking the higher aspects of Vajrayana practices.
Hope this helps
_/\_
metta
I entirely agree, and also agree that such a process takes time. I do think though that the figure of 12 years is kind of ridiculous for assessing a teacher, unless it includes time as that teacher's student.
Oh, yes, I agree. There's no way I'm researching a teacher for 12 years before I even approach them. That is ridiculous. I took it more as a advice to stay on your guard with your teacher for up to even a decade because that's how important your spiritual guidance is and you should not hand yourself over lightly. You should be weighing what your teacher tells you, considering it, questioning it and you ahould never allow your faith in your teacher to be blind.
This discussion is very important to me and will become more so as the warmer weather arrives because I'll be heading to the city to start my search for a teacher of Vajrayana. I have more reading to do to understand the details of the tradition but I consider this to be simple preparation. For me, a teacher is absolutely essential and when summer comes I'll have to have some real guidance because I won't be able to proceed on my own.
I've been reading a book by a well-respected and knowledgeable (at least as far as I know) teacher. She mentions her own teacher frequently and seems to be very fond of him and respect him greatly. From what I've read about him elsewhere, he seems to have been a rather "unpleasant" and done a lot of morally and ethically questionable things and it's difficult for me to reconcile her great respect (and complete lack of mention of these things) with what I've read about him. It's made even more complicated by the fact that none of this seems to be mentioned by any profiles on him written by his own tradition.
I'm not in a position to be looking for a teacher right now, but how do you know who you can trust? Especially if everyone around a person pretends that certain things don't exist... is the "neutral" outsider or the people close to someone more trustworthy? If something "isn't talked about" regarding a certain teacher, what does that mean?
Trungpa Rinpoche for example was a very controversial teacher. A good example of the Buddhist 'Crazy Wisdom' tradition. A teacher's realization and ability often have little to do with their personality and their morality - or rather our idea of their morality - is not necessarily the best yardstick either. Though I'm not advocating that it be completely ignored by any means. It is a difficult matter. Paraphrasing someone else (writing on marriage if I remember correctly), Aitken Roshi says something like, "Before entering into a student teacher relationship in Buddhism - keep both eyes open. After entering that relationship - keep one eye open." I think that's good advice.
Ooh, I remember reading that. Good advice and something I needed to hear again. I wonder where I read that, I can only remember reading one book by him (Zenmaster Raven or something like that) but I've probably read a few articles or essays elsewhere.
And you always seem to know what people are thinking...
He smoked, drank, slept with his students, delivered seminars drunk (sometimes having to be helped off stage), drove a sports car into a joke shop (while drunk) and was left partially paralyzed, advised his students to stop smoking pot and drink alcohol instead (???), and caused all sorts of trouble until he died from liver failure due to cirrhosis (alcohol related).
I didn't know any of this when I started researching Vajrayana. And when the Shambhala training method eventually popped up in my research (of which he is the founder) I had no idea why I felt so strongly positive and connected to it. But I do now.
The only thing I can't forgive him for is the marijuana thing...
Brigid
P.S. I can only hope that his son, who has taken over for him, takes a slightly more sane approach. :eekblue:
Aquula, I don't know if you are aware of this, but our Genryu also goes by the name Madame Kitzkjerskinski, the world renowned medium and fortune teller whose profound wisdom and insight is sought by world leaders and laypeople alike. "She" holds seances on Sunday and "he" supervises sittings on Thursday. "She" refuses payment so "he" has to double his prices. But it's well worth it. If you don't believe me you can ask Nancy Reagan.
Comments
Well, I've been agitating for an "American Buddhism" forum for probably seven years, to no effect at all. This title is close enough, and it is also the title of the news page on my site (URL in my profile).
It has become clear to me that I myself am not the kind of person who administers or moderates a board. I am more of a writer that works better, for group purposes, with an editor.
That means, yes, sugar plum pie, you can slap my hand, and it probably stays slapped. But, OTH, what I do on my own site is my own affair, and the others can just make their peace with it.
Yes, I'm going to rant on my own site. Yeesh! The jealousy!
Oh, and hey, I like your new avatar. It seems a little more you somehow. But I think you're still growing.
Only in so far as I presumed to answer on his behalf.. the offence was my perception, not his...
never-ending process....
Being that the reference was part of my sig and I didn't notice for awhile that a question had been asked of me - I took no offense at Fede taking the time to answer your question.
So - I don't know where the problem was...
-bf
I know that this wasn't addressed to me per se, but since I'm here I would like to offer my perspective on this.
The statement that a good teacher actually gives a student nothing at all might also be better understood if we first understand what the purpose of the Path really is. The purpose of the Path, if understood correctly, is not to gain anything, but to ultimately let everything go. What we unknowingly try to cling and hold onto simply becomes our burden. Everything that we learn from the Suttas and gain from our meditation practice is used to eventually guide us towards Release. Release from what? From these ten things:
A skillful teacher will lead one to abandon unwholesome actions, abandon the five hindrances, abandon views and positions of self, relinquish attachments, uproot greed, hatred, and delusion, and lay down the burden of the the five clinging-aggregates. If they have taught well, then there will be absolutely nothing left to give up; for at the end of the Path, even the knowledge that was gained for achieving the Goal is itself to be abandoned. As the Buddha himself said:
So, it could also be in reference to this that it is said:
Jason
No giving, no taking.
Something and nothing don't apply.
_/\_
A teacher.
Oh yeah?!
:P
_/\_
metta
squirrels are cool!
_/\_
metta
LOL! I'm with you, Harlan. Vajrayana is a better fit for my particular personality and the way I cogitate and come to an understanding. It's visceral to me. Although I love Zen, it's not always the most helpful way for me to reach clear understanding.
Not1Not2,
I'm LOVING those squirrels! LMAO!
Brigid
The approach of Zen emphasizes direct perception of the emptiness of all dharmas (objects or identifiables) and prajnaparamita (perfection of wisdom). Here we see the picture of squirrels having a lightsaber battle. But Zen asks, "what is this picture before we know about squirrels, lightsabers, battles and pictures?" What is this perception that we provisionally call 'squirrels having a lightsaber battle' before discrimination, contact and perception?? By developing 'Enquiry' in such a matter we see the whole picture of paticca sumappada (dependent co-arising) in one glance as well as shunya (emptiness).
In other words, in cultivating this awareness, we begin to see both sides of the coin of thusness. We are seeing the whole picture rather than just the initial appearance/manifestation as apprehended by the discriminitive mind.
I think this illustrates this idea pretty well:
http://www.textfiles.com/occult/koans
When I said, 'no giving, no taking' I simply mean that Zen cannot be given or received. Those are concepts (mental elaborations/discriminations) that have no fundamental reality. If you are still attached to the ideas of 'giving' and 'taking' then you have not seen Zen.
Hope that didn't just confuse you more. Does this make any sense? It's so hard to convey.
_/\_
metta
Sure it makes sense. It's a picture of duelling squirrels.
In my undoubtedly not humble enough opinion, at some stages in a Buddhist path, you need a teacher, and at others you don't, with the exception of the Tantra, which never works at any stage without a teacher.
If you can't find a valid teacher, or find yourself perpetually attracted to teachers who just don't teach you effectively, it means you've got basics to learn, and your teacher just won't show up until you master them. There's a lot of that in Buddhism, compared to other paths, I feel. It's set up with a lot of infrastructure, such as a written Dharma, which is there to make it easier on the teachers.
When the student is ready, the Teacher appears. (non-canonical proverb, common to all spiritual paths).
Thanks.
-bf
Horaku,
Great post. It has cleared up a lot of questions I had in a really clear, concise way.
Thanks!
Brigid
Billiards, music, Buddhism, "Perfect practice makes perfect".
I want to get this right. I'm new at this.
Not that you people aren't wonderfull, you are. Its just that I think someone full of Samsara like me would do best with some actual face time with a Buddhist Monk. So far I've relied on alot of books, and this web-site. I even have some audio tapes of HHDL teaching the Dharma on the way. But Buddha said to support the Sangha. (Monk=homeless). He also said to question, and choose your teacher carefully. Something I read said up to 12 years to be sure of your teacher.
I also think that Buddhism can help the world, that I could have saved many lifetimes if I had known about it. (In truth the only thing I understand about reincarnation is that I dont like it.) I guess it's considered rude to solicit for converts, but I wish I had discovered The Teaching of Buddha at 12 instead of 42. The whole Lutheran thing just wasn't logical enough for me.
So what to do?
Buddha's birthday is coming up, there is a temple with 2 monks just 50 miles away. We even have a real live Tibetan Cultural Center in my State of Indiana USA. That is where the tapes are coming from.
I think I should go and help if I can.
(Lama Surya Das.)
The only moment available to us to pay attention, and in which to accomplish anything, is the one we are ever in, 'at present'.
If you perpetually delay, you will always perpetually delay.
I don't understand what you guys are referring to. I just woke up. I mean, from sleeping. I mean, from regular sleeping.
It sounded like Simplelayperson has decided to start looking for a teacher. Me, too. I just have to be able to travel for 1 hour by train and about 20 minutes by car. Can't wait!
I'm glad I don't feel as if my past has been a waste of time. I feel that it took me this long to get here for whatever reasons. But now that I've heard the Dharma and can appreciate it there are no excuses for delay. Any time procrastinating WILL be a waste from here on out.
Brigid
Dear ZMG,
I guess I'm just complaining about western culture. We're fixin to move into Amish country this year. I spent the day with the 2 year old grandson and he spoke Dutch most all day. The wife is devout Christian. There is not alot of support for Buddhism around here, and I need all the help I can get.(My most humble thanks to all on this site).
I want to honor Buddha, but I'm not even sure how to pronounce the important words of his teachings. Spoken by a Monk would make a big impression. I think I may want to go for refuge.
I know I have many many many lifetimes to go, but I also read that one of the best ways to honor your parents is to help them know Buddha. (my take, from Buddhism in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom) My Mom is definitely someone I would like to see reborn to a higher life. She's 73 and doing well but not great. I've had questions from other people as well about Buddhism. I want to get it right for them as well as for my Mom and for me.
I resolve to call the Temple and arange a visit. Its only 50 miles one way, not nearly as bad as Brigid's trip.
An Open Heart by HHDL, page 41
"It is said that one should be willing to scrutinize a teacher for as long as twelve years to ensure he or she is qualified. I don't think that this is time wasted. On the contrary, the more clearly we come to see the qualities of a teacher, the more valuable he or she is to us. If we are hasty and devote ourselves to someone unqualified, the results are often disastrous. So, take time to scrutinize your potential teachers, be they Buddhist or of some other faith."
OK, here they are spoken (or written at least) by a monk. Sit when you can, give yourself completely to what is in front of you now, be gentle with yourself, don't confuse concepts with reality too much and don't discuss Buddhism with others who aren't Buddhist for at least 5 years. Now those words I think you can pronounce perfectly.
The outer ceremony is a recognition of something that's already happened. If that's the case then this can most certainly be arranged.
You only have here and now. Everything else is a delusion.
If you awaken, that will affect all that you come in contact with. That is the best way to honor the Buddha.
Great stuff. Please do keep us all informed.
ZMG I'm gratefull for sentient beings such as you.
ZMG What makes Zen Buddhism different from the other schools?
The Monks at this temple are Sri Lankan Theravada Buddhists. Would you have any advise on etiquette, or maners, or custom or whatever ?
You are not that far from me either, I hope to find myself in a moment where I can sit with you someday.
My humble thanks.
As to your question - in brief, and subject to the corrections of those with more experience of the different traditions, Zen emphasises awakening in daily life. In daily practice it emphasises meditation, working with a teacher who has him or herself awakened, spontaneity and awareness. It also sees the spirit of the Dharma and the experience of awakening as being paramount, rather than texts or rigid clinging to tradition.
The Theravada is very close in terms of daily practice to Zen, but has more of an emphasis on preserving the Dharma as it is contained as a formal body of teachings in the Pali Canon. Some would say that the Theravada is a more 'gradual' path, with a strong monastic element, while Zen is more about awakening in this life, though that too has a strong monastic core. In Zen though, monks/priests/nuns, whatever you want to call them do not generally stay in monasteries all the time, but take their training into the world and particularly after awakening are encouraged to manifest that awakening in the world.
The Vajrayana tradition of Tibetan Buddhism generally emphasises meditation, study, working intimately with a teacher and the transformation of delusion into enlightenment and is full of vigour and color. It is also seen as a direct or 'sudden' path to awakening. The distinctions of sudden and gradual enlightenment though are pretty much just conventions - in reality, there are many years of training in whichever tradition of Buddhism one practices, both before and after awakening, and the core of all genuinely Buddhist traditions is the same - the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, meditation, mindfulness and working with the mind and body as they are.
As for etiquette in Theravada - I'm sure others here can add more than I can, but the only really big no no I can think of is that of letting your feet point towards a monk or nun when you sit down on the floor or on a cushion. So it's considered respectful not to let the soles of one's feet face a monk or nun deliberately. Also, Theravada monks are not permitted to be alone in a room with a woman with the door closed, to eat after noon - apart from sweets, or to handle money without express permission, so if one is giving an offering, there is generally a Dana bowl where money or offerings can be put, rather than handing money directly to a monk or nun. Theravada monks are also not supposed to gassho or wai to lay people (though there are one or two teachers who find this rule somewhat inappropriate), so if you wai and it is not returned by a Theravadin monk, please don't take offense. Just remember that they're human beings, relax and you'll be fine.
Genryu,
That's a beautiful description and although I'm so new it describes it exactly how I see it, full of vigour and colour.
Brigid
on the wall, directly in front of where one person who comes to meditate sits. I think you'll agree that this will be very hard to look through, as one normally does when facing the wall. He's just beginning to find that things are clicking, and to 'see with his ears, hear with his eyes', as the saying has it. Now that he thinks he's getting it, beginning to get into a personal thing of black and white, facing the wall and straight lines - the timing seems appropriate, and this week we'll be facing inward and he'll have another large hanging scroll directly opposite him. This one being of Kanzeon Bosatsu:
Hope this helps
_/\_
metta
Thoroughly demeaned yours truly is so glad to be found helpful.
And what are the basics? The six paramitas.
I entirely agree, and also agree that such a process takes time. I do think though that the figure of 12 years is kind of ridiculous for assessing a teacher, unless it includes time as that teacher's student.
This discussion is very important to me and will become more so as the warmer weather arrives because I'll be heading to the city to start my search for a teacher of Vajrayana. I have more reading to do to understand the details of the tradition but I consider this to be simple preparation. For me, a teacher is absolutely essential and when summer comes I'll have to have some real guidance because I won't be able to proceed on my own.
Brigid
I'm not in a position to be looking for a teacher right now, but how do you know who you can trust? Especially if everyone around a person pretends that certain things don't exist... is the "neutral" outsider or the people close to someone more trustworthy? If something "isn't talked about" regarding a certain teacher, what does that mean?
It's all a bit confusing to me.
And you always seem to know what people are thinking...
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Wikipedia
He smoked, drank, slept with his students, delivered seminars drunk (sometimes having to be helped off stage), drove a sports car into a joke shop (while drunk) and was left partially paralyzed, advised his students to stop smoking pot and drink alcohol instead (???), and caused all sorts of trouble until he died from liver failure due to cirrhosis (alcohol related).
I didn't know any of this when I started researching Vajrayana. And when the Shambhala training method eventually popped up in my research (of which he is the founder) I had no idea why I felt so strongly positive and connected to it. But I do now.
The only thing I can't forgive him for is the marijuana thing...
Brigid
P.S. I can only hope that his son, who has taken over for him, takes a slightly more sane approach. :eekblue:
Don't be so modest, Genryu.
Aquula, I don't know if you are aware of this, but our Genryu also goes by the name Madame Kitzkjerskinski, the world renowned medium and fortune teller whose profound wisdom and insight is sought by world leaders and laypeople alike. "She" holds seances on Sunday and "he" supervises sittings on Thursday. "She" refuses payment so "he" has to double his prices. But it's well worth it. If you don't believe me you can ask Nancy Reagan.
With utmost respect,
Brigid
ZM...if that was you on that weird documentary....you need to wax..... :wtf: :eekblue:
I've noticed this before, but maybe my intentions/motivations are just unusually transparent (to other people, not necessarily to myself
Now yer talkin', baby.
-bf