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Home education

edited September 2011 in General Banter
Any home educating/homeschooling parents here? We are home educating our two and finding it a good lifestyle choice. :)

Comments

  • MindGate is doing CyberSchool at home. This is his first year at it.
  • *raises hand*
  • How are you handling the socialization aspect of it (or rather, lack of socialization)??
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited September 2011
    I highly discourage home schooling before college. Humans are social animals that need all the social experiences they can get, more so at a young age to prepare them for adulthood. Parents are not enough to teach their kids proper social skills. It takes practice with many different types of people and different situations.

    Regular school basically gets kids ready for regular college, and then regular work, and so forth. It's like a cycle, a chain. Home schooling really sort of breaks that chain and can make things difficult in the future in one way or another. I hate to sound unpleasant about it, but it just isn't healthy socially.

    It may sound good to the parents, or it may sound like the easiest option. But in the future any child who had to go through that a long time, will regret not being able to have done it the regular way.
  • I would think that parents homeschooling their kids would make an effort to involve the kids in weekend activities with other kids--soccer teams, hobby groups of some sort, whatever.

    Sometimes, especially in extraordinary circumstances, homeschooling can be the only sound choice. In a small town, if the local public school is of poor to mediocre quality, and the student needs more challenging work, if the community is very religious and the student isn't, or the student is Buddhist and doesn't fit in, and private school isn't an option, homeschooling is the only option in such a narrow, limiting environment.

    Some homeschooled kids have done remarkably well in college. Homeschooled kids have gotten into Harvard and other top universities and done well.
  • edited September 2011
    For all questions relating to the 'S' word (socialization), please go here because it puts it much better than I can:

    http://www.home-education.org.uk/articles/article-socialisation.pdf

    If you could meet my kids you wouldn't even think to ask this question.

    @Mr_Serenity: what exactly is your experience around homeschooling?

  • Also consider the level of your education when the kids get above gradeschool. How much do you really remember regarding algebra (no its not just solving for x). How much do you know about chemistry or creative writing? When I was in school the chicago manual of style was used. Now there are different protocals.

    Will your child have the opportunity to take AP tests (I realize my knowledge here is limited to u.s.)?
  • With homeschooling, Jeffrey, there are teachers' manuals for the parents, so they can stay one step ahead of the kids in math, science, whatever. Still, I wouldn't try to teach anyone physics or trigonometry, even with a teacher's manual. :eek:
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited September 2011
    @vixthenomad
    I was home-schooled for high school. I attended around 4 different high schools, at least. I ended up going to an Independent learning type of school. I attended it once-twice a week with my own individual teacher. They helped me with my work, and told me what I had to do for the next week. Then also met with a counselor once a week, who would check on my sanity literally lol.

    They were very professional and nice. But it was like a library environment, not a classroom. There were a few other kids, but since it was like a library we never really talked much. There were no group activities or times to get to know each other. We were let out at different times too, so it was hard to catch each other after class. I was there for several years and never made one friend there.

    The kids were also all the same. Very withdrawn and timid like they all had a shell on. It crippled ones social ability to be there for too long. The only places I got to socialize at were at videogame/card leagues. That is where I started making my first friends. And also at martial arts schools, where I was always the youngest among men. I didn't make friends there, but I met my best teachers there.

    Still though, I saw how a regular high school benefited other kids I knew from middle school tremendously. In so many ways that I can write a book about it. There are so many benefits to a normal structured school compared to home school or individual schooling. My brother did the same type of schooling as me.

    And he ended up even worse off socially. He was not as aggressive as me when it came to trying to improve his social skills. Even with my efforts to do things to meet other people, I felt very isolated, and like I was not part of society. It still is a part of who I am, all the isolation I dealt with made me who I am for sure. The reality is most prisoners got more socialization than me during a few years of my life.

    I put so much effort into the martial arts classes I was taking and the video game/card leagues I went to. That ended up being my world. I wasn't learning much from independent learning. By me having to do it on my own, lacking structure, and anything else to look forward to at school, it was not being absorbed as well as it would have been in a classroom environment where you have to keep up with the class. Where you can socialize with peers afterwards.

    Instead I was absorbing martial arts, and how to be good at hand eye coordination with the video games I played too. I became a master at those. I became so good at these that I won tournaments and was once called the best in the region, I competed internationally. This was all I had. Because I felt school brought me nothing, taught me nothing. Even though it was one on one, I lacked the structured environment that was needed to make me thrive. There was nothing for me at school besides academics, no other reward in it. I got good grades too, all A's in high school. But it still did not sink in.

    Even today I have forgotten almost everything academic I learned from my years at independent learning. It must be in my head somewhere, but it really isn't. Then on the other hand the stuff I learned in a structured environment, my martial arts. I remember it like I learned it just yesterday. I know it well enough to teach it.

    So my high school ended up being martial arts. I really learned nothing at independent learning. The school I went to also closed down, they don't exist anymore. It was not a good program, even though the teachers were good and professional, all in all it was just not feasible on several accounts. Many kids fell through the cracks in that type of program. I had to pick myself up by bootstraps and try to make it some how. And I still am that way, extra aggressive because I have to work very hard on my own. To make up for things I lost.

    It is much easier to just go with the flow of a regular structured school system. If I could do it over again, that's what I would have done. If I ever have kids, I will make sure they succeed at the regular school system. There are more benefits to that in the long run than home schooling, which can be very sheltering. And will require a lot more work to compensate for all that is missed.

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    MindGate is doing CyberSchool at home. This is his first year at it.
    I was just about to say that. :)
  • Also consider the level of your education when the kids get above gradeschool. How much do you really remember regarding algebra (no its not just solving for x). How much do you know about chemistry or creative writing? When I was in school the chicago manual of style was used. Now there are different protocals.

    Will your child have the opportunity to take AP tests (I realize my knowledge here is limited to u.s.)?
    I live in England so our system is different. But yes, they will be perfectly able to take GCSEs...I may just have to pay for them privately. Or they can attend school for them if they want/need to. Nothing is set in stone and we are reviewing our decision on a year by year basis. If school looks like being a good idea later on we are not excluded from that choice.

    Creative writing I can do. Regards algebra and chemistry, I'm sure I am capable of re-learning stuff if necessary - in fact even now I find myself learning along with my daughter thanks to her many questions about all sorts of things. Otherwise there is always the library, the internet, extra-curricular activities, other home educating parents/family members with different skills...learning is not limited to classrooms and in fact I've learnt much more about many subjects since LEAVING formal education than I ever did in it.

    For now, though, my kids are aged only 22 months (son) and 4 years (daughter), so I think I'll hold off worrying about exams and university for a few years! :D

    @Mr_Serenity - I'm sorry your experience was negative. My own experience - being forced to stay in mainstream school for eleven years - was at least as damaging to my own social skills etc for many years. Boredom with a limited curriculum, bullying, clique behaviour and hostility/indifference from teachers ensured that I spent my late teens and early 20s chronically depressed, and it has taken me another eleven years to even start getting over the experience. So, you see, school isn't always this amazing place where people have great experiences. Nor is home education for some. But by taking on the legal responsibility for my children's education directly (and in England it IS the parent's responsibility, not the school's, to ensure that the child receives a suitable education even if that child IS enrolled in school), I can better ensure that they have a happy childhood, rich in many different types of learning.

    I have gone into this with my eyes open - lots of research and contact with other home educating families - and with the best intentions to give my children an excellent education. I think we're succeeding so far. Both children relate well to both adults and children of all ages and have plenty of friends, and my daughter does a variety of different educational activities with the benefits that go with one-to-one guidance. We live in a city that has a well-run and extensive home education community, with people and organisations running many different activities for home ed kids from outdoor pursuits to sports to drama to art...and lots of social gatherings.

    Basically it's not about how the child gets educated as much as it is about determining what is actually optimal for the individuals and families concerned. In our case, it's home education.
  • @Mr_Serenity - I've just re-read your post and realised that all you actually talk about is your experience at a particular school...at what point were you actually educated without being part of any educational institution? Because that is what I mean when I say 'home education' and your definition appears to be very different based on what you've written.
  • I homeschooled for a while (not through choice) after my autistic son was thrown out of school because they couldn't cope. We eventually took legal action to get him into a specialist autism school, but it took several months.

    My experience was extremely negative and isolating. My son, then aged 7, became very withdrawn and worse than ever when he went out. Without social contact, I think I started to go a little crazy and my son started developing OCD.

    The academic stuff was the least of our worries - there is plenty on the Internet, and in the library. But as my son was so aggressive with other children and tantrumed constantly, we could only go to places that were quiet and virtually deserted. We had some fun, but without adult company, I was extremely lonely.

    The local homeschooling parents were largely rather odd. Many were New Agers, who seemed to believe in letting the kids have free-range; the rest were fundamentalist Christians scared of 'contaminating' their kids in heathen schools. The style of parenting many of them favoured was 'unschooling'/child-directed learning was totally wrong for an autistic child, who needed structure and wasn't prepared to encounter anything new if he could help it. Left to his own devices, he simply shrank into his shell, only coming out to have a roaring tantrum. The religious homeschoolers were utterly rigid and Victorian in their attitudes to their poor kids. Of course, they didn't like a heathen like me! ;)

    Eventually, we got my son into the specialist school, which has totally transformed all our lives. In fact, my son recently passed a state exam in maths, intended for 16 year olds, three years early! He also does riding, swimming, rowing, sailing and all manner of activities I couldn't have dreamed of doing with him.

    My experience of homeschooling was frankly traumatic, and not typical, but it did make me think that before you do it, you have to be sure that your child can cope, you can cope and you are able to make social contacts for yourself and your child with the local homeschooling community.
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited September 2011
    @vixthenomad
    What I did was the same as home school. The only difference was that I visited my teacher twice a week for her to review my work and instruct me on the rest. I did the bulk of the work on my own at home. It's called independent learning, it's a type of home school.

    Before that I also tried another type of home school where I get my work sent in the mail, and I call a teacher on the phone, listen for a short while and then do the work on my own. Send it in when I finish. It was as bad as it sounded. Didn't do that too long.

    Regular school can be difficult. It can have politics, and bullies, and all sorts of social stigma. But adapting to that is better than being sheltered and isolated by the life of home school. Sometimes home school may be the best option. Particularly when someone is working and has to squeeze in college classes on their computer into their busy schedule. (There are all types of practical online classes that can be taken now days)

    But I still feel that homeschooling for a child who is still developing socially is not good long term. I've seen what it does to people after a while. I've never seen people who went through a normal school curriculum struggle as much socially and with other things I'm sure. The psychologists I know would also agree with me. Regular structured school is usually healthier if its an option. It forces adaptation, perhaps for both the parent and the child, rather than sheltering and isolating yourself from the issue.

    Doing well in a regular structured type of school gives far more confidence then doing well at home school will give. It has far more benefits.

  • Regular school can be difficult. It can have politics, and bullies, and all sorts of social stigma. But adapting to that is better than being sheltered and isolated by the life of home school.
    Do you suppose that all home educated children have exactly the same sort of lifestyle that you had? Do you consider isolation and exclusion to be a necessary part of a home educating lifestyle? Or do you think there are ways your situation could have been improved without going to a mainstream school?
    Sometimes home school may be the best option. Particularly when someone is working and has to squeeze in college classes on their computer into their busy schedule. (There are all types of practical online classes that can be taken now days)

    But I still feel that homeschooling for a child who is still developing socially is not good long term.
    Without meaning to discount your personal experience, these sources suggest otherwise:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/oct/05/schools.uk
    http://www.cambridgestudycenter.com/artilces/Mattox1.htm
    http://school.familyeducation.com/home-schooling/human-relations/56224.html

    Also, one of the reasons for my decision to home educate was having met home educated teenagers, all of whom seemed to possess a confidence and ease of manner that is lacking in many schooled teenagers. My extensive contact with home ed kids of various ages and backgrounds, both socially and in my capacity as a private tutor, also very much goes against the common myth that 'socialisation' is a problem - if by 'socialisation' you mean 'ability to get on and make friends with a wide variety of people' rather than 'being made to conform to the social norms of school'.
    I've seen what it does to people after a while.
    By 'it' do you mean home education or social isolation, and are the two really synonymous? I found school to be an immensely isolating experience, and a lot of the reason for this was that I was keen to learn and enjoyed reading and studying. This led to me being picked on for being 'square' by my peers - and the teachers simply did not have the time or resources to help me develop my potential. This left me feeling friendless and misunderstood almost to the point of suicide.

    Interestingly, like you I found a lot of solace in martial arts and got a lot of the structure, guidance and discipline I needed in the dojo rather than what was supposed to be my primary learning environment. It would seem that we have a similar history but with the fundamental difference that I was schooled and you weren't.
    I've never seen people who went through a normal school curriculum struggle as much socially and with other things I'm sure. The psychologists I know would also agree with me. Regular structured school is usually healthier if its an option.
    That last sentence is a gross generalisation, and until you can cite actual sources to back up your claim I will take it as being opinion only.
    It forces adaptation, perhaps for both the parent and the child, rather than sheltering and isolating yourself from the issue.
    Do you feel that children and adults need to be 'forced' into things? Is this the correct and desirable way to lead a good, productive life? Or could a measure of control over what you learn and how, and the type of social contacts you have, be a good thing with the right support network? Also, adaptation to what, exactly, and why is forcing yourself into whatever it is desirable?
    Doing well in a regular structured type of school gives far more confidence then doing well at home school will give. It has far more benefits.
    Again, where is your evidence to back up the claim? Also, what if you CANNOT 'do well' (whatever that means) in a school environment? Where does that leave you?

    @Ada_B - I'm glad you managed to get your son into a suitable school. I agree that school is the best choice for some and that the decision has to be made on a case by case basis. Homeschoolers can be a quirky bunch, for sure. But I'm lucky that I live in a city that has a very varied home ed community. If certain people are too 'far out' there is the option of just not spending time with them...although I've yet to meet anyone I actually dislike.

    @daemyo - you raised your hand earlier - how's home education been for you? :)
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited September 2011


    Do you suppose that all home educated children have exactly the same sort of lifestyle that you had? Do you consider isolation and exclusion to be a necessary part of a home educating lifestyle? Or do you think there are ways your situation could have been improved without going to a mainstream school?
    I believe home school should be used as a program meant as rehabilitation. A building block to help individuals gain more confidence to be able to handle regular structured public school. So basically I feel home school should be temporary, rather than long term. Anymore than 1-2 years in a home school program and it will begin to affect the psyche in the present, and in the future, even after the school is through.



    Do you feel that children and adults need to be 'forced' into things? Is this the correct and desirable way to lead a good, productive life? Or could a measure of control over what you learn and how, and the type of social contacts you have, be a good thing with the right support network? Also, adaptation to what, exactly, and why is forcing yourself into whatever it is desirable?
    I do think at some stages in our lives we should force ourselves to do things we don't want to do. Same for our children. It's more or less known as discipline. Growth comes the most when we leave our comfort zone. Trying to make your child succeed in a normal structured public/private school is the beginning of that type of discipline. This is a chain society makes. That eventually leads to college, and to work.

    Being able to be successful in a regular school begins to teach the discipline needed to be successful in college, and in the workplace. The socialization and adaptation to structure are aspects you learn throughout normal school that do tend to trickle down and affect you more than one would realize throughout the rest of your life.

    People either adapt or they run from their problem. I feel the better way is to try to adapt and own that problem. Face your fears, and overcome it. This is the way to strength. Home school made me socially weak. I developed agoraphobia after being isolated enough. I had to compensate for that weakness through martial arts, weight lifting, reading psychology, etc. I had to teach myself basic social skills and overcome my weaknesses. Which I did, but through much hard work.


    Again, where is your evidence to back up the claim? Also, what if you CANNOT 'do well' (whatever that means) in a school environment? Where does that leave you?
    The evidence comes from my experience, others who I have personally known and the psychologists who have seen these people. They have known from the beginning that home school was not the socially healthy choice to choose long term. Just about any psychologist will probably tell you the same. But it's not an absolute. Everyone is different. There is good and bad in everything.

    I just think if one can make regular school work out, that is more beneficial by far. That is my opinion due to my experience, and what I have seen in others. I did go to regular school for elementary, middle school, and currently for college. So I know the difference of regular school compared to home school.

    If you cannot do well in a regular school environment, I feel that home school should be a temporary aid in the journey towards getting one "released back into the wild", if you will. Home school is like captivity. The wild is like public school, work, college where you have to deal with many other humans. The behavior of monkeys who are used to the wilderness compared to monkeys who have lived in captivity for such a long time is very different.

    Often it's hard to adapt for them if they're released into the wild again. I've seen the same type of affect on humans. This is why home school is best as a temporary aid, rather than long term. In my opinion. There are no amounts of articles that will change my mind on that.

    But whatever you choose for your child that is your decision. Every situation is different. I just have confidence from my own experience, that instead of sheltering a child by long term home school, it would be more beneficial to make them be able succeed in the "wild". Just in regular society if you will. Even if it's tough love, they would appreciate that type of discipline, and aggression in the long run.



  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2011
    I'm not sure you can give the same chemistry experience. With the whole laboratory experiments and all? Just a comment, you may not want to fool with chemistry anyhow :)
  • Seems like there are pros and cons to both, my gut reaction was to say "I wish I had been home schooled", but in the 70's that was unheard of. Then I read some of what was said about socialization issues, and realized that it is important that it happens, not only in school but outside of school too, and even moreso within the family unit.

    This is not to say all socialization is great, because it involves other human beings so it is flawed. School for me was just awful starting in first grade, and lasting all the way through the prison that was high school, not at all "the best years of my life".

    In fact I left HS and never looked back. I retain no relationships from those years, save one, and he was a kid that I was friends with outside of school. Home life was not really much better.

    We need interaction it's true, it has to start with family, and a positive,nurturing environment, if that does not happen it is extremely detrimental to the child, and hence the adult, who, if they do not learn social skills are going to have problems in life. I speak from personal experience, obviously.

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited September 2011
    The interaction I had at school was terrible.

    1) I ignored a vast majority of my peers.
    3) The interaction that I did have with my peers was mainly swapping snarky remarks.
    3) The ones I did talk to, though, I still talk to outside of school now that I am cyberschooled.

    The "interaction" that adults claim that kids need is a lie. Sure, I need people skills, but highschoolers are some of the worst people around. I disliked most of the people I was forced into interacting with. The adults I've met in my life have been far better than these kids.
  • edited September 2011
    I'm not sure you can give the same chemistry experience. With the whole laboratory experiments and all? Just a comment, you may not want to fool with chemistry anyhow :)
    I agree. And I wouldn't WANT them to have the 'same chemistry experience'. I think that it's a good thing that my kids will have the benefits of 'kitchen science' (both baking, which IS chemistry, and more formal experiments) rather than having to squabble over a strip of magnesium and a Bunsen burner with several other kids (which is what often passed for 'chemistry' in the state school I went to). And children's chemistry sets, with 'real' chemicals in them, have been around for years.


    @MindGate: I'm glad it's working out for you. :)
  • I think MindGate has a good point re: highschool being good for acquiring social skills. This may stem from an idealized view of what the social side of h.s. is like. Some kids are traumatized by highschool. And it's not unusual for kids to ignore the vast majority of their peers, and just hang out with 2 or 3 kids that share their interests or mindset. There are other places, perhaps healthier places, to socialize. Socializing with adults, also an option, suits some kids better.
  • edited September 2011
    I think MindGate has a good point re: highschool being good for acquiring social skills. This may stem from an idealized view of what the social side of h.s. is like...Socializing with adults, also an option, suits some kids better.
    Or socializing with older kids, or younger kids, or both, or all. I took my two to a home educator's social group in my area on Monday, and before long the whole group of kids was playing a sliding game on the skateboard ramp outside. The individuals' ages ranged from nearly 2 (my son) up to 9 years of age and they were all playing together well, with the bigger kids helping the little ones. This is by no means an unusual situation at these gatherings from what I've seen.

    If they had all been at school or in an early years childcare setting on Monday, they would have been segregated into neat little boxes (classrooms/age groups) and, thanks to the stigma attached to socializing with kids who aren't in 'your class', they probably wouldn't have played together in the playground either...or if they had, it would have been the exception rather than the rule.

    The reality of the world after the school years is that not everyone we are going to meet is going to be the same age as us. Whether a child is schooled or not, the sooner they can become accustomed to relating to people older than them and younger than them, the more equipped they will be to deal with adult life later on.
  • I'm all for kids socializing across a wide age-range. When given the opportunity, kids discover that common interests and character are more important than a silly thing like age. :)
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