prajnaparamita sutras

oceancaldera207

does anyone have access to, or know where to get Pancavimsatisahasrika prajnaparamita sutra, or the Satasahasrika Sutra? What are they like? I'd very much like to take a look at them.
I'd just like to say that I greatly appreciate the prajnaparamita sutras.. Years ago, although I was drawn to them, I found them to be intimidating, confusing, even nonsensical. As the years passed, I grew to be more and more in alignment with them, and now I really honestly cannot express how grateful I am to have them. Also the samdhinirmocana sutra is unbelievably amazing. Thanks!

oceancaldera207

Anyone? It's a shame that modern 'buddhists' breeze over the ancient sutras, deem them distant, incomprehensible and immediately look for easier explanations.
I cannot believe that people do not see them as relevant. It is so unbelievably sad.

seeker242

http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/resources/downloads/sutras/02Prajnaparamita/Astasahasrika.pdf

Large PDF file warning.

seeker242

http://lirs.ru/lib/conze/The_Large_Sutra_On_Perfect_Wisdom,Conze,1975.pdf

Even larger PDF file warning.

riverflow

I've read only the Diamond and Heart Sutras (with commentary-- both being Red Pine's translations). I'm reading Conze's translation and commentary on the Diamond Sutra now. I definitely want to delve further into the other Pranjaparamita sutras though-- they seem to me to be the most important in Mahayana tradition.

oceancaldera207

Thanks seeker242,appreciate it but I already have those two. Here;s a list I found,
1:Triśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 300 lines, the Diamond Sūtra, or Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra
2:Pañcaśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 500 lines
3: Saptaśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 700 lines, the bodhisattva Mañjuśrī's exposition of Prajñāpāramitā
4: Sārdhadvisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 2500 lines, from the questions of Suvikrāntavikrāmin Bodhisattva
5: Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 8000 lines
6: Aṣṭadaśasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 18,000 lines
7: Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 25,000 lines
8:Śatasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 100,000 lines

I'm looking for the last two, 7 & 8.
The Larger Sutra of Perfection of Wisdom yuo sent I believe is #6, the Astadasasahasrika. The other one you gave is #5 Astasahasrika.
I would love to know what number 8 is. Is it even translated? I've seen references to number 7 Pancavimsatisahasrika being translated by Ed Conze, but I cant find any excerpts or anything. :coffee:

Hey riverflow, check out a book called 'Perfect Wisdom the short Prajnaparamita Sutras' (Edward Conze), It's a little treasure trove.. theres several sutras it it that are impossible to find on the net, and Conze's translations of the heart sutras are really good. (it has the first four on the list above, plus a few more.)

I'd like to read Red Pine's translation of the Diamond sutra; I liked his 'Heart sutra' quite a bit, (though I must say I didn't read more than two words of his commentary).
Also, I highly recommend the Samdhinirmocana Sutra, which is shockingly clear and a little scary frankly! I wish I had found it much sooner.



Thanks for your responses! I really appreciate it.
btw, Perfect Wisdom, The Short Prajnaparamita Sutras by Ed Conze is pretty cheap thru amazon. :thumbsup: Also, I have a massive collection of sutras in PDF, If anyone is looking for something in particular, I may have it, send me a message.

riverflow

Hey riverflow, check out a book called 'Perfect Wisdom the short Prajnaparamita Sutras' (Edward Conze), It's a little treasure trove.

Ha! Guess what I ordered from Amazon earlier this evening? Its reassuring to know I made a good pick.

I'd like to read Red Pine's translation of the Diamond sutra; I liked his 'Heart sutra' quite a bit, (though I must say I didn't read more than two words of his commentary).

I've gotten more out of Red Pine's commentary on the Diamond Sutra than his commentary on the Heart Sutra. His Heart Sutra commentary I thought got a bit dense in places. His Diamond Sutra commentary is actually made up of various other commentators, so you get a diversity of voices which is refreshing (he did something similar in his translation of the Daodejing). At any rate, its highly readable.

oceancaldera207

Ha! Guess what I ordered from Amazon earlier this evening? Its reassuring to know I made a good pick.

heheh that's neat. It really is a great compilation.

Also, you might check out 'buddhist yoga' -Thomas Cleary, I have that in PDF if you want it.

oceancaldera207

So, I understand that Nagarjuna's Mahaprajnaparamitasastra is a commentary on the Pancavimsatisahasrika Prajnāpāramitā Sūtra...?

riverflow

So, I understand that Nagarjuna's Mahaprajnaparamitasastra is a commentary on the Pancavimsatisahasrika Prajnāpāramitā Sūtra...?

I'm not familiar with that work... I've only read Nagarjuna's Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way (Garfield's translation with commentary) which I'll have to re-read many times. But I'll have to say, as terse and as difficult as it was, there were some points, while truly engaging with the text that I found truly revelatory.

I've been reading Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's The Sun of Wisdom which is a somewhat more accessible commentary on the Fundamental Verses. Nagarjuna is tough sledding, but he's definitely worth it!

seeker242

Thanks seeker242,appreciate it but I already have those two. Here;s a list I found,
1:Triśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 300 lines, the Diamond Sūtra, or Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra
2:Pañcaśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 500 lines
3: Saptaśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 700 lines, the bodhisattva Mañjuśrī's exposition of Prajñāpāramitā
4: Sārdhadvisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 2500 lines, from the questions of Suvikrāntavikrāmin Bodhisattva
5: Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 8000 lines
6: Aṣṭadaśasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 18,000 lines
7: Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 25,000 lines
8:Śatasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra: 100,000 lines

The 2nd link I posted is this: Mostly the version in 25,000 lines, with some parts from the versions in 100,000 and 18,000 lines

The full 100,000 lines I doubt you will find online as it is something like 1,800 pages long. This book appears to be the only translation of it.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Śatasāhasrikā_Prajñāpāramitā.html?id=SlQ9YgEACAAJ


and you have to copy/paste the link because of the accents on the letters make the link not work

oceancaldera207

Ahh ok so Edward Conze's Larger Perfection of Wisdom has pieces of 5, 6, and 7? Im really going to try to get ahold of that asiatic society book. What mysteries must this gigantic prajnaparamita sutra hold?

oceancaldera207

riverflow, here's a excerpt from Nagarjunas Sixty Verses On Sunyata which I likes a lot:
1. Though the Buddhas have spoken of duration, origination, destruction, being, non-being, low, moderate, and excellent by force of worldly convention, [they] have not done [so] in an absolute sense.

2. Designations are without significance, for self, non-self, and self -- non-self do not exist. [For] like nirvana, all expressible things are empty (sunya) of own-being.

3. Since all things altogether lack substance -- either in causes or conditions, [in their] totality, or separately -- they are empty.

Youre right though, Nagarjuna can be pretty thick, and blunt..the moral lessons I find a little tedious and confusing.
In any case translators seem to feel that Nagarjuna's verses are a real challenge.

Ch-an_noob

Without the right morality, concentration and right views, you cannot practice the sutras correctly.

oceancaldera207

Without the right morality, concentration and right views, you cannot practice the sutras correctly.

I believe that many of us naturally behave with relatively high moral standards. I certainly do.
What I mean is that some of nagarjunas moral lessons are very...quirky..and thick. For example:
3If your wife is evil and your friend evil,
If the King is evil and your relatives evil,
If your neighbour is evil and the country evil,
(Then) abandon them for a distant (land)
(Nagarjuna's Tree of Wisdom)
It's saying something like, better to preserve yourself and leave... but under what circumstances are all these evil? See what I mean? It's kind of poetic..hard to get at the meaning. One could think about what this really means for days.
Don't get me wrong, Nagarjuna is one of the few things that I will read that is not a direct sutra of the buddha.

oceancaldera207

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/bot/pdf/bot_1997_01_03.pdf
great overview of texts. this is what i needed

taiyaki

it all comes down to relative and absolute view points.

absolutely there is no true good or evil as both are projections from mind.

so if you cannot be in good company and cannot engage in peace then it is better to remove yourself, rather than create more negative karma for yourself.

but then go back to the cushion and do the mental workout so that you can engage with these evil beings and transform your karma to start to see them as other than evil beings. then potentially you will have a break through and realize that all is a projection. they all lack intrinsic qualities.

we avoid the negative until we can engage with the negative. we transform the negative by study and practice. through clear seeing we attain wisdom and through wisdom we realize how our minds work.

riverflow

I just began reading Lex Hinton's Mother of the Buddhas last night (which contain 40 selections from the 8,000 Line Sutra) and I have to say its quite beautiful and very inspiring.

I still have Conze's more scholarly translations (the Perfect Wisdom collection of shorter sutras) to read as well.

oceancaldera207

Thanks riverflow
I found this book,
The Pancavimsatisahashrika Prajnaparamita - Nalinaksha Dutt

which has not yet arrived. Im eager to see what it holds. I may have seen most of it already in other texts, but sometimes a new translation really makes a difference... I personally love to compare two different translations at the same time; extremely interesting and informative. Generally, If a certain part doesn't seem right to me, I'll compare it to other translations. Translators do their best i'm sure, but this is the trickiest of the trickiest stuff, because it is language that transcends language, in fragments and ancient dialect. i'm thankful that we have what we do really.

I really can't get enough of the samdhinirmocana sutra... I dont ever see it classified as a prajnaparamita sutra, which I do not understand, because it really seems to be one to me. btw, the samdhinirmocana (cleary) is cheap online, but I've never seen a digital copy.