Do Buddhists believe in evolution?

becomethesignal

That's not really the main subject of which I would like to discuss. Although, do Buddhists believe in evolution? I would find that interesting because of the fact that Darwin was the first to talk about such a process and he lived in the 1800's. So did the idea of how we came to be on this earth not interest the Buddha or is there some other sort of idea?

Onto the real subject.
First off, I would like to say that I have much more respect for most Buddhists than for most Christians. Buddhists seem to actually be living out what they say while most Christians don't. Also I feel that I can talk to most Buddhists without the fear of them shutting me down and telling me I'm wrong. I try not to think in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' but rather in terms of what is healthy, life giving, positive and the opposite - what is unhealthy, negative and what brings death and destruction.

If in both Christianity and Buddhism the followers require salvation, then that means there is something to be saved from. What does one need to be saved from? I would say that it is death. Not so much death in the physical but rather death being a descriptive term meaning what is unhealthy, destructive, hurtful, purposely offensive, greedy, lustful, hateful, etc.

From reading some of these articles and knowing a little about Buddhism and too much about Christianity (or "Christianity") I have come to a relatively simple conclusion. A conclusion which is bound to receive much criticism and angry remarks, yet would a true Buddhist or a true Christian be angry and say demeaning things to me because I have come to a logical conclusion? What is the point of being a Christian? What is the point of being a Buddhist? Do both types of people want to truly enjoy life and live with a positive outlook on life with many ethical virtues and be self-sacrificing for the good of others? I think some of the most important common goals between the two religions come down to love. I certainly cannot say that I'm even a fraction of an expert on Buddhism or that I'm an expert on Christianity either. So, I may not know enough to be making these statements, but I will do my best.

That being said, a Christian believes that their salvation is already worked out, in a sense, and they have hope for the future and that they should focus on virtues such as loyalty, honor, compassion, polite courtesy, complete sincerety, honesty, justice, love, etc. etc. And a Buddhist believes that they need to constantly work out their salvation and be secure only within themselves and not need 'God' or anything else and also feels a need to display said virtues. (I may be incorrect, perhaps that's not the focus of Buddhism)

So what I'm trying to say is that because most Buddhists rely on themselves for 'salvation' and don't seem to believe in an eternal afterlife it seems as though what they are trying to accomplish might be vain. But I could be wrong, what are Buddhists trying to accomplish? On the other side would be the Christian who has been saved by the grace of a compassionate God, has a secured hope for the future and is more readily able to focus on helping others and doing things that will last. So it seems that the Christian would have the advantage of being able to focus on what really matters (helping others and so forth) because of the fact that they need not focus on themselves or trying to find enlightenment in and of themselves. Also if Christians have eternal life after death and Buddhism is a never ending cycle, I personally would think it better to believe that what I'm doing now will have a lasting impact and that I don't need to rely only on myself for salvation.

-Just my thoughts and how I see things as of yet. Again I don't know that much about Buddhism. Remember though, not once did I say Buddhism is better than Christianity or vice versa. One may think I am implying one or the other but they can't really know for 100% sure because they don't know me. I am just exploring the ideas of what seems to matter most and want to know what it means to actually live. I do my best to think about things logically and sensibly and I have firm foundational beliefs because of the fact that nothing I have heard, seen, or experienced has deterred me from seeing things the way I do. In other words nothing has proven what I believe to be incorrect so far. I am always open to talk about things and to the idea that I may be incorrect. And yet, if the purpose of any response to this blog would be to pick apart what I say, only criticize and find spelling errors... then I'm not so sure someone like that should respond.

On another note, I just read this ' "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya." The heart of the Buddha's teachings can be summarized in this one statement. "Nothing whatsoever should be clung to." ' Unless this is specifically talking about objects and not subjects then I have this to say: If nothing should be clung to then there is absolutely nothing that remains important and there are not outstanding virtues and there is no reason to look for the ultimate truth because it should not be clung to. Also, if in fact nothing should be held onto then why have any sort of system of beliefs what so ever? This seems to me to be an oxy-moron to some of his other teachings, but maybe I'm misinterpreting it.

federica

BecometheSignal, first of all, may I extend a very warm welcome to our forum.

Secondly, let me assure you that you will not generate anger, irritation, impatience or hostility through the questions and comments you have posted.

Thirdly, I will try to answer your post as well as I can, from my own Point of View and opinion. I am sure that as others come in, they will answer from a slightly different perspective and angle, and more scholarly and erudite members will be far more competent and thorough than I...
Because I am, to all intents and purposes, a very simple soul....
So I will merely tell you how it is with me.

Born and raised a Roman Catholic in the bosom of an Italian family, I was both active and prominent in my community and was actively involved in catholic life.
I "converted" to Buddhism around five years ago, and have found this vocation to be more satisfying and fulfilling than Christianity ever was.

Buddhists neither seek salvation, and nor do they have a set of beliefs, per se....

The Kalama Sutra was an instruction given by the Buddha to the Kalama people, exhorting them to examine, peruse and study every teaching that came their way, in the deepest and most thorough way possible, before either accepting or rejecting what they heard or read.
And he included his own teachings under that proviso.
The Dalai Lama said, quite openly, that if Science ever came up with a different and proven Truth to one he had previously adhered to through his Buddhist doctrine, then naturally, he would have to alter his opinion. To date, he has not had to do that. And neither have I. And believe me, His Holiness works very closely with scientists who have, for example, studied the effects of the Thought process on the health of the Body, and the benefits of meditation....

Remember that Truth is relative.
To give you a very simplistic and basic example... the 'cold' I feel, which prevents me from leaving the house without a coat, may be a balmy summer's day, to an Inuit.
Neither of us is 'wrong'. We both have the same Truth, but from different angles.
In the same way, if a Christian tells me that they believe in God, and are sure of Salvation through Christ, I may not see things their way, but I accept their right to have that opinion, point of View, faith and belief. But from my angle, I don't see it that way.
The Buddha gave us the Four Noble Truths, The EightFold Path, and (as lay people) the Five Precepts.

The first are an appraisal of why we find life so upsetting at times,and unsatisfactory. It's because we cling to the desires and cravings for things which are impermanent and transitory - be it the desire for health wealth and a long life, or just a better car, better house better job.... and that there is a way out of this cyclical continuous slog of never ending ups-and-downs... and it is the following and practise of the Eightfold Path. Notice that the Buddha never says 'You must'... or 'You HAVE to'... His teachings point the way. How we implement them, and to what degree brings us our own self-ordained success....
the Five Precepts, again, are a strong indication of what should be practised, in order to lead a 'Good and viruous Life' but we are, as always, the judges of our own actions. We reap what we sow.
Many think that a Buddhist's objective is Enlightenment, and whilst it is true that we strive to redress the balance and create and generate Good karma in order to progress positively, we generally do not overly fret about the past (you can't do ANYTHING to change it) or the Future (it has not yet arrived....) so we tend to engage our efforts in making good the Present.... It is said that 'If you want to know what you were 'yesterday', look at what your life is like today. If you wish to know what you will be 'tomorrow', look at what your Mind is like today'.
So we improve the Mind through Meditation, Reflection and Concentration, in order to have the Right View and Intention....
Living a fulfilling life and making those around us happy, is the secret of fulfilment and deep inner Joy. For me at least.

Nice to have you with us.

becomethesignal

Thank you for the welcome. I appreciate what you have to say. Maybe I still don't understand but "The Buddha gave us the Four Noble Truths, The EightFold Path, and (as lay people) the Five Precepts." - this statement says to me that these are things that have to be followed, therefore they must be held onto. Even the idea that 'truth is relative' is also a 'held onto' belief. I don't mean to argue but some things seem to contradict themselves in Buddhist philosphy, but of course I am not well read in this philosphy so I don't have much say. I also agree that their are different angles of truth, however I think that they are just different angles. This does not mean that it is impossible for truth to be absolute. If one is honest with oneself then one can realize that the phrase "there is no absolute truth" is an absolute truth to them, thereby contradicting the very idea they hold onto. I also truly appreciate the fact that people are willing to listen and respect other's points of view, however I'm not necessarily convinced that 'what works for you works for you and what works for me works for me'. If that were true then a person could choose whatever they want and disregard any and every law of man or 'ethical law' and say that it is just how they want to live their life. Can that be respected? Such as a rapist who will do whatever they want whenever they want. Since this is a crime that is destructive to themselves and others it musn't be tolerated or respected. And how can this be if everyone has their say on what is destructive and what isn't and what is true and what isn't? Also, if I personally believed in macroevolution then I would certainly not give a damn what anyone said and would do and say whatever, whenever. So I guess what I'm saying is how do we know anything for sure? I think that I know, but what do you think? And what do you mean by 'the right view and the right intetion'? How can you say your view is the right one if you don't agree with mine?

DharmaKitten

I believe in evolution - micro and macro. Heck, I think it's a weird notion that living beings could stay relatively similar after years and years.

federica

becomethesignal wrote:

"The Buddha gave us the Four Noble Truths, The EightFold Path, and (as lay people) the Five Precepts." - this statement says to me that these are things that have to be followed, therefore they must be held onto.

Not so. As I said earlier, the Buddha taught the Kalam Tribe the importance of testing everything to its limits before accepting or rejecting it. he never excluded his teachings from that. So whilst he propounded these things as his fundamental doctrine, he still left them open to scruting=y and to question. But it is up to the individual to test them, examine them and to try them out before deciding whether they hold water, and should be practised, or whether they are flawed, and leave them aside.

Even the idea that 'truth is relative' is also a 'held onto' belief.

I apologise. I should have clarified. Truth is generally based on research and fact, but Belief does not need the person to have the weight of proof laid before them.
It is, for example, a Truth that the earth and planets in our solar system go around the sun. This has been shown to be a Truth supported by hard, scientific evidence. However, this was not always thought to be the case. What people once believed, is that the sun went round the earth. because they had no manner or means of testing this otherwise, and it seems infinitely logical. So engrained is it into our psyche, that we still talk about the sun rising and setting. We patently know it does nothing of the kind - !

I don't mean to argue but some things seem to contradict themselves in Buddhist philosphy, but of course I am not well read in this philosphy so I don't have much say.

We would be more than happy to clarify that which seems to contradict itself in your eyes, if you'd like to bring us a couple of examples... The sutras can be extremely confusing....

I also agree that their are different angles of truth, however I think that they are just different angles. This does not mean that it is impossible for truth to be absolute. If one is honest with oneself then one can realize that the phrase "there is no absolute truth" is an absolute truth to them, thereby contradicting the very idea they hold onto.

The Dalai Lama - and many other leading respected religious and spiritual teachers - have done much to unify and bring together different religions for constructive dialogue. There are different Truths held by Jews, Moslems, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus to which the other religions do not adhere... but the fundamental central Truth of every Discipline is the cultivation of Love and Compassion for ones' fellow Man, regardless of what they hold to be True.
Truth is testable. A Belief, or Faith cannot be thus categorised.

I also truly appreciate the fact that people are willing to listen and respect other's points of view, however I'm not necessarily convinced that 'what works for you works for you and what works for me works for me'.

I cannot answer this, unless I know what it is that works for you works for you but will not work for me... Unless i know what it is you know, I cannot know that I know it also, or do not know it.

If that were true then a person could choose whatever they want and disregard any and every law of man or 'ethical law' and say that it is just how they want to live their life. Can that be respected? Such as a rapist who will do whatever they want whenever they want. Since this is a crime that is destructive to themselves and others it musn't be tolerated or respected. And how can this be if everyone has their say on what is destructive and what isn't and what is true and what isn't?

Excuse me, but this is clouding the issue... There is a huge difference betwen Truth and Law.... There are very few (if any) cultures on this planet that do not have Laws. And laws are put into place as a means of giving people boundaries and illustrating what is and is not acceptable social behaviour.
of course Rape is a dreadful and terible crime. Anybody would recognise that this is a crime which should be punished.
However as a Buddhist, I cultivate exactly the same Universal Compassion and Unconditional Loove for the criminal as I do the victime. This is not to say that I trivialise or dismiss the seriousness of the issue. Quite the contrary. I recognise the wretchedness and dep unhappiness of those who seek to harm others, and seek the inner Goodness of that person which I know exists. But I know that their actions are lawless,a nd need punishing.

Also, if I personally believed in macroevolution then I would certainly not give a damn what anyone said and would do and say whatever, whenever.

Do you not believe in macroevolution? There is much scientific evidence to support it... But I am not sufficiently versed in the Buddhist scriptures to be able to inform you of the Buddha's thoughts on this.....

So I guess what I'm saying is how do we know anything for sure? I think that I know, but what do you think?

What I know I know is different to what I think I know, because then it becomes something that I merely think... And we know anything for sure by doing exactly what the Buddha advised. By testing it to its limits, for ourselves. and if we cannot find an answer to these questions, then we lay it aside as being imponderable. These four enigmas are to be left aside, because to try to fathom them out would turn anyones' brains to swiss cheese. That's ok by me - I am not alone!

And what do you mean by 'the right view and the right intetion'? How can you say your view is the right one if you don't agree with mine?

These two, (Right View, and Right Intention) are the first two 'steps' on the Noble Eighfold Path. Whilst the Eightfold Path can be take in any order, like the spokes of a wheel, they stand up to individual scrutiny and need to be read, understood absorbed and lived by, should one so wish.
Right View encourages us to be of a suitable, appropriate and open frame of mind. to View things in an as unbiased and unprejudicial way as possible, with the ever-present possibility of having to change that View if a different Truth comes along.... Obviously it is far more elaborate and detailed than that... But that is the gist of it....
Right Intention speaks of whether what you are doing is motivated by the right 'desire'....
For example, my Intention in answering your post, is NOT to convince you of how right I am... My Intention is merely to explain what I hold to be True, in greater detail....

Do you see? Is this clearer?

becomethesignal

It is somewhat clearer and I thank you. I am at times dimwitted and still don't understand that if there isn't universal, fundamental truths such as it being wrong to murder someone, then how do we know it is wrong? I probably just missed the point on that.
I have seen many unbiased videos, documents and been to different seminars and studied in some detail the idea of evolution. What I have found is that it is infact a theory and there isn't much actually scientific proof or even solid evidence to support evolution. But that's another subject. I, too, don't want people to see things exactly how I see them but I just joined this site to learn and hope by chance that my finite knowledge and experience migh perhaps help someone else as well.

Xrayman

if there isn't universal, fundamental truths such as it being wrong to murder someone, then how do we know it is wrong? I probably just missed the point on that.
Hey BTS,

with reference to the above, have you considered that if someone was to murder you, would it upset you? would it cause you grief and anguish?
Chances are, if you think it would upset or hurt you physically and or mentally, then it is "wrong", I think that may asist you in your questioning.

If not, then ignore me.

regards,
X

VoidWhereProhibited

For me the important point is that to have a belief and to cling to a belief needn`t be the same.

Xrayman

Just had a thought,

I think that buddha referred to "Impermanence" a sense that nothing remains the same-maybe this is a kind of Evolution concept-repackaged?

regards
X

Brigid

I think, in the Buddhist view, that there is Truth and I think it's the Dharma.

Hey, Becomethesignal,

The Dharma is the totality of the Buddha's teaching and it teaches us that life is full of stress and often, suffering. It teaches that this stress and suffering is caused by our ignorance of reality, in particular the reality that nothing is permanent, and by our resultant grasping for things, people, ideas, dreams, misunderstandings of reality etc. The good news is that there's a way out of suffering and it's called The Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path is a way in which to live our lives in a wholesome and skillful fashion. It is also the way to reach Enlightenment. You have to read about each one of them at this point, because they're important, but they are Right (or Complete) View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Mindfulness and Concentration. This is the core of Buddhism and includes compassion, reality, mindfulness, meditation and moral discipline (Right Speech, Action and Livelehood) for the purpose of mental purification. The Noble Eightfold Path This link will probably answer a lot of your questions. It's a source that Elohim gave us and it's great. Let us know what you think.

Brigid

becomethesignal

Thank you all for your comments. And yes they do clear some things up. (It will take me some time to read the entire The Noble Eightfold Path)

federica

Take all the time you need.... Many of us are still in the study stages, and will continue to be so for the forseeable future... But if there's anything you need help on, we'll do what we can to see you through it - !!

Brigid

federica wrote:

Take all the time you need.... Many of us are still in the study stages, and will continue to be so for the forseeable future... But if there's anything you need help on, we'll do what we can to see you through it - !!

Ditto, Becomethesignal.

There are some very learned people who come here and their help has had a huge influence on me. I've learned SO much from everyone here. Hope you do, too. Have fun and ask any questions you want.

Brigid

federica

Don't know whether this will be of any help at all... seems very interesting.....

http://www.tricycle.com/issues/editors_pick/1940-1.html

buddhafoot

I've always had a hard time with Christians not believeing in some sort of Evolution.

Even when I did time in a Christian Concentration Camp - I couldn't believe that the mindset was to ignore Evolution.

I mean, where the hell did Cain's wife come from!?!??!??!

-bf

masteravatardavidsta

Dear BECOMETHESIGNAL, First-It NEVER angers me to hear a fellow seeker ask honest questions. How else can WE learn? Second- I totally agree with your observations on many Christians and Buddhists (one of the reasons I'm now a Buddhist). I also am an adherent to Darwnian evolutionist theory. As for "salvation"we Buddhist tend not to believe in an eternal "hell" per-se. So in that sense there's really nothing to be "saved" from - but human suffering. That's where the concept of ENLIGHTENMENT comes in. Thus - far I view enlightenment as US realizing that WE are ALL connected.