Buddhists Who Died For America

XingPing

This is my response to bushnioki's (properly) locked thread, about Buddhists in the military:

Buddhists Who Died for America

This is the roll-call, which will never be forgotten as long as there is Buddhism in America, of the Japanese-Americans who died fighting on the American side in WWII:

Amakawa, Nobuo * Kawata, Goro * Ogasawara, Yorio
Aragaki, Hideo * Kaya, Satoshi * Ogata, Masaru
Arai, Tatsuo * Kimura, Matsuichi * Ogata, Tsugio
Asai, Yukio * Kinoshita, Kunito * Ogomori, Yoshio
Asami, Iwao * Kinoshita, Sadakazu * Okamoto, Mitsumi
Asaato, Shotaro * Kiyabu, Shigeo * Okamoto, Sueo
Chinen, Makoto * Kiyota, Yorio * Okimoto, Hisao
Choriki, Kiyoshi * Kobayashi, Mitsuo * Okimoto, Masao
Doi, Haruo * Kohara, Sadaichi * Okumura, Kataro
Eji, Kazuhiko * Komatsu, Kameo * Okumura, Toyokazu
Eki, Joji * Kondo, Harushi * Onaga, Takyesu
Fujii, Masao * Kono, Yasuyuki * Onishi, Mamoru
Fujikawa, Masaki * Kotsubo, Seichi * Otaguro, Nobuto
Fujiki, Hideo * Kouchi, Takashi * Otaguro, Tadashi
Fujinaka, Noboru * Kozuki, Masaru * Otake, Sadao,
Fuykamizu, Haruo * Kubo, Yoshio * Ozaki, Ykio
Fukeda, Akira * Kuboyama, Mitsuharu * Sahara, Atsuo
Fukugawa, Masami * Kuraoka, Sadayoshi * Sakamoto, Isao
Fukuhara, Masuo * Kuroda, Ichiji * Sakamoto, Uichi
Fukumoto, Shizuo * Kuroda, Toshio * Sasaki, Yoshio
Fukumura, Itsuji * Kuwahara, Suneo * Sasaki, Yukio
Funai, Kazuto * Maeda, Kenji * Sasaoka, Goroku
Furakawa, Tsuyoshi * Mana, Seiso * Shikita, Katao
Furukido, Kenzo * Mashita, Masatomi * Shimabukuro, Tomoaki
Goda, Hiroshi * Matsumoto, Goro * Shimizu, Satoru
Hagihara, Yoshio * Matsumoto, Sadao * Shimizu, Takeo
Hamamoto, Seiichi * Matsumoto, Yoshio * Shimonoya. Toshio
Hanaoka, Shuzo * Matsunaga, Junichi * Shintani, Takeo
Harada, Kiyoshi * Matsuno, Shizuo * Sogi, Masaru
Hasemoto, Mikio * Mekata, Tzutomu * Sugawara, Senji
Hashimoto, Masato * Migita, Torao * Sugiyama, Itsuo
Hatanaka, Masao * Minatodani, Isamu * Suwa, Nobuyuki
Hayakawa, Minoru * Mito, Kazuo * Taira, Masaru
Hayakawa, Yoji * Miura, Eiso * Takafuji, Shigeo
Hayama, Makoto * Miura, Toshio * Takemoto, Haruo
Hayashi, Nobuaki * Miyabe, Masami * Takemoto, Seiichi
Hayashi, Shiro * Miyaguchi, Masayuki * Tamura, Toyoshi
Higa, Matsuo * Miyajima, Shizuo * Tanaka, Keiichi
Higashi, Kdenji * Miyamoto, Hideo * Tanimoto, Tadayuki
Hirahara, Tomomi * Miyamoto, Tokuyoshi * Tanimoto, Yukio
Hiramatsu, Kazuo * Miyata, Tamotsu * Tanonaka, Hiroshi
Hiramoto, Hirayuki * Miyata, Yukito * Tengan, Yowhio
Hiraoka, Genichi * Mizumoto, Tamotsu * Tenno, Yoshio
Hiraoka, Rin * Mochizuki, Terua * Terada, Mamoru
Hiratani, Himeo * Morisaki, Masao * Teramoto, Masato
Hisano, Masao * Morishige, Eiji * Togo, Shiro
Hiyane, Shigeo * Morishita, Takeo * Tokushima, Mitsuo
Horinouchi, Joji * Moriwaka, Kaoru * Tokuyama, Minoru
Ichimura, Kenichi * Motoishi, Hiroshi * Toma, Tsugiyasu
Ide, Yukio * Motokane, Masao * Tomita, Nobuaki
Iha, Masao * Motonaga, Susumu * Toyama, Kansei
Ikeda, Yoshio * Murakami, Isamu * Toyama, Shinsuke
Ikehara, Kikuichiro * Murata, Shigeru * Tozaki, Sadato
Imae, Hachiro * Murata, Yukio * Tsunematsu, Akira
Inakazu, Masaki * Myoga, Tsuyoshi * Tsuruoka, Noboyuki
Inouye, Minoru * Nagaji, Kazutomi * Ueda, MOriichi
Irie, Masaji * Nagami, Hiroshi * Uejo, Seiho
Ishida, Mitsuyoshi * Naito, Kaoru * Uemoto, Kazumi
Ishii, Masayuki * Nakamine, Shinei * Ujimori, Yukio
Ishii, Shichiro * Nakamura, Iwao * Uyeda, Torao
Ishikawa, Kiyomi * Nakamura, Morio * Uyeno, Toshiyuki
Ishiki, Shinichi * Nakamura, Toshio * Watanabe, Kiyotoshi
Ishimoto, Akira * Nakauye, Takashi * Watanabe, Mitsuo
Ishimoto, Sigeo * Niide, Shigeto * Yagi, Seiko
Ito, Hachiro * Nishi, Chikao * Yamada, Tsukasa
Ito, Tetsuo * Nishida, Ko * Yamaguchi, Mori
Iwahiro, Kumao * Nishimura, Katsuyuki * Yamamoto, Masaru
Izuo, Naruaki * Nishimura, Kazuo * Yamamoto, Takeo
Jitchaku, Munemasa * Nishimura, Keizo * Yamanaga, Isamu
Kagawa, Yasuo * Nishimura, Shigeki * Yamasaki, Shizuo
Kagihara, Junichi * Nishishita, Jun * Yamashita, Kazuo
Kameda, Yoshito * Nishitani, Chieto * Yamashita, Kazuo
Kanaya, Etsutoshi * Nishitani, Taro * Yamashita, Masaichi
Kashiwaeda, Goro * Nishiyama, Tetsuo * Yogi, Matsuichi
Kato, Minoru * Nozaki, Tadashi * Yokomichi, Misao
Kawamoto, Haruo * Nozaki, Yoshio * Yokotake, Katashi
Kawamoto, Toshio * Nozawa, Shizuo * Yoneda, Hajime
Kawamura, Masami * Numa, Toshio * Yoneshige, Itsuo
Kawano, Tetsuo * Oba, Masayoshi * Yoshida, Kanji
Yoshida, Shoichi * Yoshimura, Minoru * Yoshimura, Saburo

They were members of the "Fighting 442nd" (Infantry Battalion), the most decorated unit in the history of the Ameircan military. The members of this unit who did not die in war returned home to Hawai'i, to build the Hawaiian Democratic Party and the State of Hawaii, elevating their ethnic group to a prominence equal to, and in some ways superior to, that of the Haole.

I record these here not in admiration of the Japanese ancestor cult, which I despise, but in admiration of a group of Buddhists who demonstrated unequalled integrity, and who gave the lie, for all time, to the myth of gutless Buddhist pacifism.

Real Buddhists are not pacifist, they're human. Some must die so that the rest can live lives that are worth living. Nothing sacred can exist on this planet if it's not defended, and that includes a country worth living in.

The Buddha taught non-violence for monks, and the non-interference of monks in the political process. That is light-years away from pacifism. Pacifists are not Buddhists. They are futile Utopian idealists who just don't know how anything works on this planet. Therefore, all pacifists, please go back to your planets of origin, and stop messing up this one. You just don't listen, and you don't learn from your experience, and we don't need your profound and incorrigible stupidity here.




On the same subject, it would be well to notice that throughout its feudal period, the majority of Japan's warrior ruling class, the samurai, were Buddhists. The Zen Master Hakuin, in writing to one of his noble samurai followers, advised him to "Take the Shogun as the principal object of worship." The Shogun, by definition, was a warlord.

The Buddha Himself was out of the Kshatriya (Warrior) Shakya clan. He didn't waste His life having a problem with the warlike dharma of his family. He taught non-violence for monks and nuns, and was silent on the issue for others.

buddhafoot

An interesting article.

I can't and won't say that pacifism is right or wrong. I think non-violence should be a way of life. But, tell me that pacifism would have worked against the atrocity of the Jews, blacks, homosexuals, mentally handicapped in WWII - and I would have to disagree with you.

That that goes for any type of cleansing be it: Hutu/Tutsis, Serbs/Croats, Christian/Infidel/Heathen, etc. I believe to sit back while others are killed for nothing more than their heratige(sp?) or skin color is not Right View, Intention, Mindfulness, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, or Concentration.

-bf

-bf

Jason

All,

Here are some Suttas dealing with war:

Staying at Savatthi. Then King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, raising a fourfold army, marched toward Kasi against King Pasenadi Kosala. King Pasenadi heard, "King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, they say, has raised a fourfold army and is marching toward Kasi against me." So King Pasenadi, raising a fourfold army, launched a counter-attack toward Kasi against King Ajatasattu. Then King Ajatasattu & King Pasenadi fought a battle, and in that battle King Ajatasattu defeated King Pasenadi. King Pasenadi, defeated, marched back to his capital at Savatthi.

Then in the early morning, a large number of monks, having put on their robes and carrying their bowls & outer robes, went into Savatthi for alms. Having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from their alms round, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to the Blessed One: "Just now, lord, King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, raising a fourfold army, marched toward Kasi against King Pasenadi Kosala. King Pasenadi heard, 'King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, they say, has raised a fourfold army and is marching toward Kasi against me.' So King Pasenadi, raising a fourfold army, launched a counter-attack toward Kasi against King Ajatasattu. Then King Ajatasattu & King Pasenadi fought a battle, and in that battle King Ajatasattu defeated King Pasenadi. King Pasenadi, defeated, marched back to his capital at Savatthi."

"Monks, King Ajatasattu has evil friends, evil comrades, evil companions, whereas King Pasenadi has fine friends, fine comrades, fine companions. Yet for now, King Pasenadi will lie down tonight in pain, defeated."

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:

Winning gives birth to hostility.
Losing, one lies down in pain.
The calmed lie down with ease,
having set
winning & losing
aside.

- SN III.14

Staying at Savatthi. Then King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, raising a fourfold army, marched toward Kasi against King Pasenadi Kosala. King Pasenadi heard, "King Ajatasattu of Magadha, the son of Queen Videha, they say, has raised a fourfold army and is marching toward Kasi against me." So King Pasenadi, raising a fourfold army, launched a counter-attack toward Kasi against King Ajatasattu. Then King Ajatasattu & King Pasenadi fought a battle, and in that battle King Pasenadi defeated King Ajatasattu and captured him alive.

The thought then occurred to King Pasenadi: "Even though King Ajatasattu has wronged me when I have done him no wrong, still he is my nephew. What if I, having confiscated all his elephant troops, all his cavalry, all his chariots, & all his infantry, were to let him go with just his life?" So King Pasenadi — having confiscated all his elephant troops, cavalry, chariots, & infantry — let King Ajatasattu go with just his life.

Then in the early morning, a large number of monks, having put on their robes and carrying their bowls & outer robes, went into Savatthi for alms. Having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from their alms round, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they [reported these events to the Blessed One].

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

A man may plunder
as long as it serves his ends,
but when others are plundered,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.

A fool thinks,
'Now's my chance,'
as long as his evil
has yet to ripen.
But when it ripens,
the fool
falls
into pain.

Killing, you gain
your killer.
Conquering, you gain one
who will conquer you;
insulting, insult;
harassing, harassment.

And so, through the cycle of action,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.

- SN III.15

buddhafoot

What exactly does that mean in realistic terms, Elohim?

-bf

Jason

And, these also:

Once, monks, in Varanasi, Brahmadatta was the king of Kasi — rich, prosperous, with many possessions, many troops, many vehicles, many territories, with fully-stocked armories & granaries. Dighiti was the king of Kosala — poor, not very prosperous, with few possessions, few troops, few vehicles, few territories, with poorly-stocked armories & granaries. So Brahmadatta the king of Kasi, raising a fourfold army, marched against Dighiti the king of Kosala. Dighiti the king of Kosala heard, "Brahmadatta the king of Kasi, they say, has raised a fourfold army and is marching against me." Then the thought occurred to him, "King Brahmadatta is rich, prosperous... with fully-stocked armories & granaries, whereas I am poor... with poorly-stocked armories & granaries. I am not competent to stand against even one attack by him. Why don't I slip out of the city beforehand?" So, taking his chief consort, he slipped out of the city beforehand. Then King Brahmadatta, conquering the troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries of King Dighiti, lived in lordship over them.

Meanwhile, King Dighiti had set out for Varanasi together with his consort and, traveling by stages, arrived there. There he lived with her on the outskirts of Varanasi in a potter's house, disguised as a wanderer. Not long afterwards, she became pregnant. She had a pregnancy wish of this sort: she wanted to see a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground at dawn, and to drink the water used for washing the swords. She said to King Dighiti, "Your majesty, I am pregnant, and I have a pregnancy wish of this sort: I want to see a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground at dawn, and to drink the water used for washing the swords." He said, "My queen, where is there for us — fallen on hard times — a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground, and water used for washing the swords?"

"If I don't get this, your majesty, I will die."

Now at that time the brahman adviser to King Brahmadatta was a friend of King Dighiti. So King Dighiti went to him and, on arrival, said, "A lady friend of yours, old friend, is pregnant, and she has a pregnancy wish of this sort: she wants to see a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground at dawn, and to drink the water used for washing the swords."

"In that case, let me see her."

So King Dighiti's consort went to King Brahmadatta's brahman adviser. When he saw her coming from afar, he rose from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder and, with his hands raised in salutation to her, exclaimed three times, "Surely the king of Kosala has come to your womb! Surely the king of Kosala has come to your womb! Don't be worried, my queen. You will get to see a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground at dawn, and to drink the water used for washing the swords."

Then he went to King Brahmadatta and, on arrival, said to him, "Your majesty, signs have appeared such that tomorrow at dawn a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, should stand on a parade ground and that the swords should be washed."

So King Brahmadatta ordered his people, "I say, then: Do as the brahman adviser says." Thus King Dighiti's chief consort got to see a fourfold army, armed & arrayed, standing on a parade ground at dawn, and got to drink the water used for washing the swords. Then, with the maturing of the fetus, she gave birth to a son, whom they named Dighavu (LongLife). Not long afterwards, Prince Dighavu reached the age of discretion. The thought occurred to King Dighiti, "This King Brahmadatta of Kasi has done us great harm. He has seized our troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries. If he finds out about us, he will have all three of us killed. Why don't I send Prince Dighavu to live outside of the city?" So Prince Dighavu, having gone to live outside of the city, learned all the crafts.

Now at that time King Dighiti's barber had gone over to King Brahmadatta. He saw King Dighiti, together with his consort, living on the outskirts of Varanasi in a potter's house, disguised as a wanderer. On seeing them, he went to King Brahmadatta and, on arrival, said to him, "Your majesty, King Dighiti of Kosala, together with his consort, is living on the outskirts of Varanasi in a potter's house, disguised as a wanderer."

So King Brahmadatta ordered his people, "I say then: go fetch King Dighiti together with his consort."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," they went and fetched King Dighiti together with his consort.

Then King Brahmadatta ordered his people, "I say then: having bound King Dighiti & his consort with a stout rope with their arms pinned tightly against their backs, and having shaved them bald, march them to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evict them out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut them into four pieces and bury them in holes placed in the four directions."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," the king's people bound King Dighiti & his consort with a stout rope, pinning their arms tightly against their backs, shaved them bald, and marched them to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads.

Then the thought occurred to Prince Dighavu, "It's been a long time since I saw my mother & father. What if I were to go see them?" So he entered Varanasi and saw his mother & father bound with a stout rope, their arms pinned tightly against their backs, their heads shaven bald, being marched to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads. So he went to them. King Dighiti saw Prince Dighavu coming from afar, and on seeing him, said, "Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance."

When this was said, the people said to him, "This King Dighiti has gone crazy. He's talking nonsense. Who is Dighavu? Why is he saying, 'Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance'?"

"I'm not crazy or talking nonsense. He who knows will understand." Then a second time... a third time he said, "Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance."

A third time, the people said to him, "This King Dighiti has gone crazy. He's talking nonsense. Who is Dighavu? Why is he saying, 'Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance'?"

"I'm not crazy or talking nonsense. He who knows will understand."

Then the king's people, having marched King Dighiti together with his chief consort to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evicted them out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut them into four pieces, buried them in holes placed in the four directions, stationed guards, and left.

Then Prince Dighavu, having entered Varanasi, brought out some liquor and got the guards to drink it. When they had fallen down drunk, he collected sticks, made a pyre, raised the bodies of his mother & father onto the pyre, set fire to it, and then circumambulated it three times with his hands raised in salutation.

Now at that time, King Brahmadatta had gone up to the terrace on top of his palace. He saw Prince Dighavu circumambulating the pyre three times with his hands raised in salutation, and on seeing him, the thought occurred to him, "Doubtlessly this person is a relative or blood-kinsman of King Dighiti. Ah, how unfortunate for me, for there is no one who will tell me what this means!"

Then Prince Dighavu, having gone into the wilderness and having cried & wept as much as he needed to, dried his tears and entered Varanasi. Going to an elephant stable next to the king's palace, he said to the chief elephant trainer, "Teacher, I want to learn this craft."

"In that case, young man, you may learn it."

Then, rising in the last watch of the night, Prince Dighavu sang in a sweet voice and played the lute in the elephant stable. King Brahmadatta, also rising in the last watch of the night, heard the sweet-voiced singing & lute-playing in the elephant stable. On hearing it, he asked his people, "I say: Who was that, rising in the last watch of the night, singing in a sweet voice and playing a lute in the elephant stable?"

"Your majesty, a young man — the student of such-and-such an elephant trainer, rising in the last watch of the night, was singing in a sweet voice and playing a lute in the elephant stable."

"I say then: go fetch that young man."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," they went and fetched Prince Dighavu.

Then King Brahmadatta said to Prince Dighavu, "I say: Was that you rising in the last watch of the night, singing in a sweet voice and playing a lute in the elephant stable?"

"Yes, your majesty."

"I say then, my young man: sing and play the lute."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," and seeking to win favor, Prince Dighavu sang with a sweet voice and played the lute.

Then King Brahmadatta said to him, "I say: You, my young man, are to stay and attend to me."

"As you say, your majesty," Prince Dighavu replied. Then he rose in the morning before King Brahmadatta, went to bed in the evening after him, did whatever the king ordered, always acting to please him, speaking politely to him. And it was not long before King Brahmadatta placed the prince close to him in a position of trust.

Then one day King Brahmadatta said to Prince Dighavu, "I say then, my young man: harness the chariot. I'm going hunting."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," Prince Dighavu harnessed the chariot and then said to King Brahmadatta, "Your chariot is harnessed, your majesty. Now is the time for you to do as you see fit."

Then King Brahmadatta mounted the chariot, and Prince Dighavu drove it. He drove it in such a way that the king's entourage went one way, and the chariot another. Then, after they had gone far, King Brahmadatta said to Prince Dighavu, "I say then, my young man: unharness the chariot. I'm tired. I'm going to lie down."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," Prince Dighavu unharnessed the chariot and sat down cross-legged on the ground. Then King Brahmadatta lay down, placing his head on Prince Dighavu's lap. As he was tired, he went to sleep right away. Then the thought occurred to Prince Dighavu: "This King Brahmadatta of Kasi has done us great harm. He has seized our troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries. And it was because of him that my mother & father were killed. Now is my chance to wreak vengeance!" He drew his sword from his scabbard. But then he thought, "My father told me, as he was about to die, 'Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance.' It would not be proper for me to transgress my father's words." So he put his sword back in its scabbard. A second time... A third time the thought occurred to Prince Dighavu: "This King Brahmadatta of Kasi has done us great harm. He has seized our troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries. And it was because of him that my mother & father were killed. Now is my chance to wreak vengeance!" He drew his sword from his scabbard. But then he thought, "My father told me, as he was about to die, 'Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance.' It would not be proper for me to transgress my father's words." So once again he put his sword back in its scabbard.

Then King Brahmadatta suddenly got up — frightened, agitated, unnerved, alarmed. Prince Dighavu said to him, "Your majesty, why have you gotten up suddenly — frightened, agitated, unnerved, & alarmed?"

"I say, my young man: Just now as I was dreaming, Prince Dighavu — son of Dighiti, king of Kasi — struck me down with a sword." Then Prince Dighavu, grabbing King Brahmadatta by the head with his left hand, and drawing his sword from its scabbard with his right, said, "I, your majesty, am that very Prince Dighavu, son of Dighiti, king of Kasi. You have done us great harm. You have seized our troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries. And it was because of you that my mother & father were killed. Now is my chance to wreak vengeance!"

So King Brahmadatta, dropping his head down to Prince Dighavu's feet, said, "Grant me my life, my dear Dighavu! Grant me my life, my dear Dighavu!"

"Who am I that I would dare grant life to your majesty? It is your majesty who should grant life to me!"

"In that case, my dear Dighavu, you grant me my life and I grant you your life."

Then King Brahmadatta and Prince Dighavu granted one another their lives and, taking one another by the hands, swore an oath to do one another no harm.

Then King Brahmadatta said to Prince Dighavu, "In that case, my dear Dighavu, harness the chariot. We will go on."

Responding, "As you say, your majesty," Prince Dighavu harnessed the chariot and then said to King Brahmadatta, "Your chariot is harnessed, your majesty. Now is the time for you to do as you see fit."

Then King Brahmadatta mounted the chariot, and Prince Dighavu drove it. He drove it in such a way that it was not long before they met up with the king's entourage.

Then King Brahmadatta, having entered Varanasi, had his ministers & councilors convened and said to them, "I say, then. If you were to see Prince Dighavu, the son of Dighiti, the king of Kasi, what would you do to him?"

Different ministers said, "We would cut of his hands, your majesty" — "We would cut off his feet, your majesty" — "We would cut off his hands & feet, your majesty" — "We would cut off his ears, your majesty" — "We would cut off his nose, your majesty" — "We would cut off his ears & nose, your majesty" — "We would cut off his head, your majesty."

Then the king said, "This, I say, is Prince Dighavu, the son of Dighiti, the king of Kasi. You are not allowed to do anything to him. It was by him that my life was granted to me, and it was by me that his life was granted to him."

Then King Brahmadatta said to Prince Dighavu, "What your father said to you as he was about to die — 'Don't, my dear Dighavu, be far-sighted. Don't be near-sighted. For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance' — in reference to what did he say that?"

"What my father said to me as he was about to die — 'Don't be far-sighted' — 'Don't bear vengeance for a long time' is what he was saying to me as he was about to die. And what he said to me as he was about to die — 'Don't be near-sighted' — 'Don't be quick to break with a friend' is what he was saying to me as he was about to die. And what he said to me as he was about to die — 'For vengeance is not settled through vengeance. Vengeance is settled through non-vengeance' — My mother & father were killed by your majesty. If I were to deprive your majesty of life, those who hope for your majesty's well-being would deprive me of life. And those who hope for my well-being would deprive them of life. And in that way vengeance would not be settled by vengeance. But now I have been granted my life by your majesty, and your majesty has been granted your life by me. And in this way vengeance has been settled by non-vengeance. That is what my father was saying to me as he was about to die."

Then King Brahmadatta said, "Isn't it amazing! Isn't it astounding! How wise this Prince Dighavu is, in that he can understand in full the meaning of what his father said in brief!" So he returned his father's troops, vehicles, lands, armories, & granaries, and gave him his daughter in marriage.

Such, monks, is the forbearance & gentleness of kings who wield the scepter, who wield the sword. So now let your light shine forth, so that you — who have gone forth in such a well-taught Dhamma & Discipline — will be their equal in forbearance & gentleness.

- Mv X.2.3-20

Then Yodhajiva ["warrior"] the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Yodhajiva the headman sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of warriors who said: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

- SN XLII.3

Jason

buddhafoot,

It means that if you are trying to follow the teachings of the Buddha, then these are the teachings that should be carefully read and contemplated when dealing with the topic of "war". After one has read them, and thought them over, they will then have the information needed to make their own decisions concerning this subject [from a "Buddhist" perseptive at least].

This particular topic is not always so black and white. Many factors will contribute to any one decision, at any one time. No two situations will ever be identical. That is why people need the information to make their own choices, not simply be told what to do one way or the other. The reason is that there will always come a time when a situation arises that was not previously covered, and we'll just have to make a judgement call. That is when we'll need our own [hopefully skilful] discernment the most.

I am almost always against war, but I will admit that there are certain circumstances where I would fight myself. I simply hope that such situations never arise. That is just me, however. I do not feel it is my place to tell others if and when they should fight in a war. It is only in the heart of each person where this choice can be made. What right do I really have to make it for them?



Jason

buddhafoot

I would have to agree.

I abhor war. I've never had any fascination for armed service (not discrediting those who have, mind you) nor wanted to serve in the military.

But, I do believe that there are some instances where one may have to take physical action to do what may be perceived as "Right".

A difficult situation in some circumstances.

-bf

Jason

All,

Just a note:

These posts were intended for another thread in The American Buddhist forum, but in my lapse of mindfulness I posted them here. Either way, it is still on topic, so I guess it could have been worse. Sorry horaku, I didn't mean to hijack this thread.

My apologies.



Jason

Brigid

Elohim wrote:

buddhafoot,

It means that if you are trying to follow the teachings of the Buddha, then these are the teachings that should be carefully read and contemplated when dealing with the topic of "war". After one has read them, and thought them over, they will then have the information needed to make their own decisions concerning this subject [from a "Buddhist" perseptive at least].

This particular topic is not always so black and white. Many factors will contribute to any one decision, at any one time. No two situations will ever be identical. That is why people need the information to make their own choices, not simply be told what to do one way or the other. The reason is that there will always come a time when a situation arises that was not previously covered, and we'll just have to make a judgement call. That is when we'll need our own [hopefully skilful] discernment the most.

I am almost always against war, but I will admit that there are certain circumstances where I would fight myself. I simply hope that such situations never arise. That is just me, however. I do not feel it is my place to tell others if and when they should fight in a war. It is only in the heart of each person where this choice can be made. What right do I really have to make it for them?



Jason

Jason,

This post has affected me in an amazing way. As I read it, I became aware of how gently wise it was. This is wonderful. Pure wisdom, really.

Thanks, Jason.

Brigid

catweasel

If american buddhists are to ever learn anything. then Just look at the Movie THE STAND

The whole world was dead but life only existed in the ole usa..LOL

XingPing

Elohim wrote:

All,

Just a note:

These posts were intended for another thread in The American Buddhist forum, but in my lapse of mindfulness I posted them here. Either way, it is still on topic, so I guess it could have been worse. Sorry horaku, I didn't mean to hijack this thread.

My apologies.



Jason

Well struck, friend. I don't feel that the thread was high-jacked, and I consider your posts excellent.

Certainly, all mature Buddhists would agree, I feel, that warlike karma is an obstruction to practice. Nevertheless, those with that karma must necessarily fight, and we must bless them in it, precisely because we do not want to descend to it in our own cases, and also because in this world of duality, war is sometimes unavoidable in any case.

TheInfanta

As the brother of a Marine who has already toured Iraq three times, I am fully supportive of the soldiers (Buddhist or not), although I'm not supportive of the war.

There is a difference between supporting your fellow humans and supporting the violence of war. Who can honestly say they support the violence of war, Buddhist or not?

sharpiegirl

Good point, Infanta.

Just because our political leaders are hung up in war...our fellow citizens should be supported.
This topic is quite a difficult one for me. I have ancestors that trace back to the Civil War. Without their dedication and efforts, where would our country be?
My grandfather fought in WW II. And I have cousins in Iraq. Of course I pray and support them..though I think war is not the answer!

It's a dilemma.

buddhafoot

The Infanta wrote:

As the brother of a Marine who has already toured Iraq three times, I am fully supportive of the soldiers (Buddhist or not), although I'm not supportive of the war.

There is a difference between supporting your fellow humans and supporting the violence of war. Who can honestly say they support the violence of war, Buddhist or not?

I totally agree with you, Infanta.

Support of soldiers, in my opinion, is different from supporting war.

I've heard many stories of Vietnam vets who DIDN'T want to go to war - but had to or suffer consequences they were not prepared for. Then, after having to do something they truly did not want to do, they came back to the states with people calling them "Baby Killers" and such.

Not cool.

Now, mercenaries on the other hand... I don't think they fall into this category.

-bf

TheInfanta

Good thoughts and opinions.

I would like everyone to call me Eric. Infanta is a little awkward.

buddhafoot

Nope.

Infanta it is.

Plus, it reminds me of that soft drink...

-bf

Jason

buddhafoot,

I've always liked the one in purple.



Jason

Xrayman

War. I'll sit this one out. No Comment.

Now the girls on the Fanta picture, mmm well I'd like to see the lot of them "In-Fanta", or in Jelly or Mud...

Perhaps i should just remain quiet.

buddhafoot

Elohim wrote:

buddhafoot,

I've always liked the one in purple.



Jason

He likes the chicks with the big hair!!!!!

You MUST be from the south.

-bf

sharpiegirl

How did you men get from war to the chick with big hair!!??:rolleyesc :scratch:

buddhafoot

sharpiegirl wrote:

How did you men get from war to the chick with big hair!!??:rolleyesc :scratch:

Easy!

In the words of Mr. Lennon, "Make love, not war."

We go from war straight to the big hair.

-bf

Simonthepilgrim

Sharpiegirl,

Has it not struck you that war is an excuse by which people from one country go and have sex with people from another? It is one of DNA's sneakiest methods for diversifying the gene pool. Thus, 'war' and' big hair' are both aphrodisiacal.

buddhafoot

Hmmm....

That's a stretch, Simon.

But I'll buy into it

-bf

sharpiegirl

Nope. That's a man's excuse!!!

Simonthepilgrim

sharpiegirl wrote:

Nope. That's a man's excuse!!!

Not an excuse at all. Real human beings can resist such biological prompting.

XingPing

catweasel wrote:

If american buddhists are to ever learn anything. then Just look at the Movie THE STAND

The whole world was dead but life only existed in the ole usa..LOL

D'alors, who watches an American movie?

buddhafoot

I don't get it.

-bf

KnightofBuddha

I always have found it slightly ironic that perhaps the world's most disciplined and skilled warriors of all time, the Samurai, were for the majority Buddhists...

Anyway, I like to call myself an assertive pacifist...As in, I would rather not fight and fighting is something I would much like to avoid, but how do you stop mass genecide with peaceful protesting? How does something as terrible as the Third Reich ever get stopped without fighting? Sure I agree that violence only leads to more violence, but in the case of fighting Hitler, it was something more like a lot of violence lead to less violence and stopped the total annihilation of the Jewish people in Europe. Something like this I feel could not have been achieved without fighting. It is treason I think to watch others suffer needlessly when you are fully capable of stopping it.

XingPing

sharpiegirl wrote:

How did you men get from war to the chick with big hair!!??:rolleyesc :scratch:

It's a "male bonding ritual," i.e., they're bored and OT, and they're trying to be kewl.

Actually, I hired them with my previous avatar, and it was probably a mistake. If I had known the ilk of forum gypsy that would take to opportunity to crawl out of the rive gauche, I probably would not have bothered.

Knitwitch

Horaku - you seem very angry. Could you tell us if it is US you are angry at or are you just angry with the world in general?

I am quite sincere about this. It is sad to see another human being get so spiteful about so many subjects. Have we offended you in some way or is your suffering connected to something else and we are just getting the fall out from it? And if the latter, why us? Or can we help in any way?

Xrayman

yes? what's the deal?

once again, I'm lost.

x

Brigid

Thanks Knitwitch and Xray. I thought it was only me.

What's the deal, Horaku?

Brigid

(This is starting to sound a little familiar.)

YogaMama

Oh good....I was wondering the same thing, Knitwitch.

Knitwitch

Well if the poor soul is suffering perhaps we can help, but if he is just coming in here to be unpleasant perhaps we will find out.

Xrayman

Aren't we all suffering?

I think that perhaps ZM would be normally writing something like this-I just thought I'd beat him to it...:rockon:

Only joking...

regards,
Xrayman

zenmonk_genryu

horaku wrote:

On the same subject, it would be well to notice that throughout its feudal period, the majority of Japan's warrior ruling class, the samurai, were Buddhists. The Zen Master Hakuin, in writing to one of his noble samurai followers, advised him to "Take the Shogun as the principal object of worship." The Shogun, by definition, was a warlord.

Er actually no they weren't. It was somewhat fashionable to be affiliated with Zen in the sense of the Zen aesthetic and so forth, but by no means were most Samurai practicing Zen Buddhists. Oh and Hakuin never said that by the way. You made it up.

The Buddha Himself was out of the Kshatriya (Warrior) Shakya clan. He didn't waste His life having a problem with the warlike dharma of his family. He taught non-violence for monks and nuns, and was silent on the issue for others.

In fact he personally intervened to stop war right on the battlefield, so yes he did 'have a problem with the warlike dharma of his family' and of others, and was far from silent about the issue, whether speaking to laymen and women, or monks and nuns. The very first precept too is that of not taking the life of living beings - and that applies both to the laity and the ordained.

Even if thieves carve you limb from limb with a double-handed saw, if you make your mind hostile you are not following my teaching.

Kamcupamasutta, Majjhima-Nikkaya I ~ 28-29

Verily, O monk, due to sensuous craving, kings fight with kings, princes with princes, priests with priests, citizens with citizens, the mother quarrels with the son, the son quarrels with the father, brother with brother, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend’.

(Majjhima Nikaya)

Vengeance is never appeased by vengeance.
By non-vengeance alone is vengeance conquered.

- The Buddha

And thank you for the thought Xrayman.:)

Xrayman

You are welcome, but I was half-serious about the suffering issue.:buck:

and welcome back.

Xrayman

Knitwitch

Xrayman wrote:

Aren't we all suffering?

I think that perhaps ZM would be normally writing something like this-I just thought I'd beat him to it...:rockon:

Only joking...

regards,
Xrayman

Yes we are, and we are all trying to end the suffering of others, hence my questions.

Will

Killing & violence are bad karma, in large part, because of the anger that is usually involved. On an individual basis, if one can respond with strong physical energy, but with no anger (as some martial arts inculcate) one can reduce the bad karma of the aspiring murderer (for a worst case example). So self-defense, done this way, is better than passivity. Because in the latter case, while you will have some old violent karma wiped out because you suffered being "sawed" up with no complaint, the murderer is stuck with some new, killing karma. However this violence with no anger attitude is very hard to cultivate, so Buddha's advice, to just take what is coming, is best for most of us.

On a national scale, living up to a harmless standard, not to mention an altruistic one, is virtually impossible now, for all except the smallest nations with the wisest of leadership. But I will speculate that, with a professional military, one that does not fight with blazing anger always and is defending either their own nation or some other weak one from a ruthless enemy - that nation & that military would accrue less bad karma than the ruthless instigator.

Brigid

Thanks, Will. I found this post to be extremely interesting and illuminating. And comforting in the sense that it raises my hope for a future in which combat and defense may be seen in a different light.

As a fantasy, I'm imagining a future in which nations train their armies in martial arts so that if attacked by an aggressor (obviously, a nation that does not train their army in martial arts) they may be able to mitigate the karmic consequences of all. Or something like that. Having a hard time putting it into words. I'm just sort of sci fi fantasizing. LOL!

In any case, thanks for your post. I think I feel a seed (no pun intended) of a novel forming in my brain. If I get published and end up on the New York Times Bestseller's List I'll let you know and we can divvy up the royalties. LOL!

Brigid

Will

Brigid wrote:

Thanks, Will. I found this post to be extremely interesting and illuminating. And comforting in the sense that it raises my hope for a future in which combat and defense may be seen in a different light.

As a fantasy, I'm imagining a future in which nations train their armies in martial arts so that if attacked by an aggressor (obviously, a nation that does not train their army in martial arts) they may be able to mitigate the karmic consequences of all. Or something like that. Having a hard time putting it into words. I'm just sort of sci fi fantasizing. LOL!

In any case, thanks for your post. I think I feel a seed (no pun intended) of a novel forming in my brain. If I get published and end up on the New York Times Bestseller's List I'll let you know and we can divvy up the royalties. LOL!

Brigid

Get to that keyboard Brigid! I am sure a 70=me/30=you split will be OK with you.

But seriously, a professional, all volunteer force is a small step in that direction. Never mind martial arts training, just a dutiful, protective, vigorous attitude during combat would help. And that attitude may be just what most USA combat personnel have now. It seems unrealistic to think one can fight at a feverish, furious pace and be crazy angry at the same time. Even boxers know to keep your cool or you will make a mistake and he will take your head off. Think of cops or anyone who is immersed in violence prone situations regularly. They have to be of a peaceful demeanor or more problems will face them. That is why lady cops can often cool off things better than a man, because they seem less of a threat.

Yes, there can be psychopathic soldiers, cops etcetera - but those are very few.

Brigid

Get to that keyboard Brigid! I am sure a 70=me/30=you split will be OK with you.

LOL! As long as you also serve as consultant, editor and publisher.

Brigid

XingPing

Brigid wrote:

What's the deal, Horaku?

You tell us your game, and I'll deal 'em to you straight, for sure.

I started this new thread, with my own original intellectual property, and it has generally been found useful and informative. That's my game. Why do you have a problem with it?

buddhafoot

I don't believe Brigid has a "game", Horaku. I may be overstepping myself in answering for her - but she can correct me if I have.

As for you... I'll have to ask a question posed to you before...

Have we done something to upset you? Can you please inform us of some trespass instead of just slamming us as "forum gypsy" ilk?

-bf

Simonthepilgrim

Will wrote:

...............................................

But seriously, a professional, all volunteer force is a small step in that direction.
......................

How can we have a 'professional' but voluntary armed service? Because the nations have conspired together to demand standing armies, we have paid soldiers whose job is being a soldier. In non-national forces, such people are derogatively named "mercenaries" and looked down on.

Make no mistake. A study of history demonstrates very quickly that standing armies are, in and of themselves, dangerous to the common weal. Military coups have taken place throughout the world. Personally, I witnessed the taking of the French Assembly by armoured troops in 1958. This is not some distant fact but within living memory in Europe. And how many other military take-overs have there been in the pat 50 years? Many, I think you'll find.

Looking at it from the point of view of the leaders of the military, it is logical that they should use the means at their disposal should they decide that their government/nation is no longer acting in accordance with their (the military's) desires And having a politician as commander-in-chief only makes the situation that much more fragile and dangerous.

XingPing

Simonthepilgrim wrote:

How can we have a 'professional' but voluntary armed service? Because the nations have conspired together to demand standing armies, we have paid soldiers whose job is being a soldier. In non-national forces, such people are derogatively named "mercenaries" and looked down on.

Make no mistake. A study of history demonstrates very quickly that standing armies are, in and of themselves, dangerous to the common weal. Military coups have taken place throughout the world. Personally, I witnessed the taking of the French Assembly by armoured troops in 1958. This is not some distant fact but within living memory in Europe. And how many other military take-overs have there been in the pat 50 years? Many, I think you'll find.

Looking at it from the point of view of the leaders of the military, it is logical that they should use the means at their disposal should they decide that their government/nation is no longer acting in accordance with their (the military's) desires And having a politician as commander-in-chief only makes the situation that much more fragile and dangerous.

Well struck, friend.

I myself was in danger of being drafted in the Vietnam era, so I joined the USN to avoid it, because I am not a pacifist, and at the age of 18, I sincerely did feel that I had a duty to serve my country. That was a successful strategy on my part. I avoided Vietnam, and really grew up in the military.

I did not agree with Vietnam, for the same reasons that I do not today agree with the war in Iraq. These have been stupid unnecessary wars.

But I got to see the military from the inside, and what I saw of a drafted military did not impress me. You don't want this. War is way too demanding to be assigned, by whatever process, to those who essentially don't want to do it, and who may be actually incapable, for a whole range of reasons, of doing it well.

I thoroughly agree with a professional, not voluntary, military. The guys over there now are way more grownup, and way more capable of effective action, in any direction at all, than we ever were. After this perfectly disaterous adventure in Iraq, I'm sure that they will lead our country in the complete and utter destruction of the Bushtoid dysfarct in Washington. They won't take to the streets. They're way too sqared-away for that. They will simply take over the government through the democratic process, and working together as they will, they will be utterly capable of dealing with attempts to corrupt the electoral process.