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If you can't swim yourself

Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
edited October 2011 in Philosophy
can one really help anyone else?

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    One can pass on conventional knowledge, but wisdom requires the experiential... the doing.
  • possibilitiespossibilities PNW, WA State Veteran
    No.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2011
    You can, but the effectiveness varies. If you're passing on conventional knowledge such as is found in the sutras exactly how it's said in the sutras, that's good (this is basically parroting the Buddha or other enlightened minds).

    If you're interpreting but don't have clarity and pass on an interpretation that doesn't lead to wisdom, that's not so good. The best combination is someone who has seen the truth for themselves explaining the Dharma in their own words and the words of the Buddha also, having the capability of explaining it in different ways until it clicks for a student.

    This is the difference between an enlightened teacher and a Dharma Friend. A friend would still be trying to learn how to swim along with you, and so whether they help you (or you help them) is really up in the air.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2011
    This is also a classic argument between schools, such as Theravada perspective is something like enlightenment first and then helping others... and Mahayana is everyone help each other to enlightenment. Not that either view is right, or that these are the only views. It's just likely to be a sticky topic! :)
  • possibilitiespossibilities PNW, WA State Veteran
    You can, but the effectiveness varies.
    IOW - you may both dog paddle, but is that the content of this question?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    My mahayana teacher says that we cannot help others fully until we are enlightened. But we can be inspired by awaken(ing/ed) beings and take on their qualities through such inspiration.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2011
    You can, but the effectiveness varies.
    IOW - you may both dog paddle, but is that the content of this question?
    I'm not sure what you mean. I think I covered the OP in the post. If you're looking for a simple answer, it's "not sure". It could be a "yes", "no" or "maybe". It depends on conditions. You might be explaining the Four Noble Truths to your neighbor and they might awaken right then and there.

    At least that's going by how I understood the OP ("if you can't swim yourself, can you help anyone else?") as basically "can an unenlightened mind help guide another unenlightened mind to awakening?" (or some such translation).

    It's more a matter of the recipient's mind than anything. Something may hit them just right... a word, phrase or sentence... a sight, sound or mental impression, and there it is. That's all anyone is to anyone else, sense-impressions (and the mental constructs that we cling to). Even a teacher can only provide so much and the student must make themselves able to penetrate the meaning.
  • possibilitiespossibilities PNW, WA State Veteran
    edited October 2011
    @Cloud -- I guess I was wondering whether he really meant swimming or some form of swimming.... obviously any variation thereof can be taught and learned (dog paddle).

    I was looking at the premise that you'd need to apply a certain skill at a given level to reach a fixed goal - and if you're not able to, you can't teach it ... however on second thought, that's what trainers do for world class athletes all the time... (without getting close themselves). But they understand the technique.

    If you don't understand the technique, you're both (possibly) sunk.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Yes, you row the boat over to them. :)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @possibilities :D
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Give them a lecture on buddhism instead of a life ring :)
  • StaticToyboxStaticToybox Veteran
    can one really help anyone else?
    If they're not out in the water sure.

    :nyah:
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    You can show them the map and hope you both can reach the destination. Of course it is easier if one of you have already got a glimpse or reached the destination.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    I've seen two different answers to this. One is that you need to learn to swim first to help others. The other is that if you want to help others, you'll learn to swim in the process yourself. Which one would you say is true? Both?
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