Dogen said 'Even though a monk breaks the 10 precepts, he is superior to a lay person who observes t

jll

Dogen said 'Even though a monk breaks the 10 precepts, he is superior to a lay person who observes the 5 precepts.'
Do you agree? Why and why not?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hfMkpD_Xr3sC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=dogen+superiority+of+monk+life&source=bl&ots=Z7otBRIfF6&sig=QqoA0Hm0su5vQYCYkiRkMzGT1Vo&hl=en&ei=jB2VToDsIMWSiQfcycyHBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=dogen superiority of monk life&f=false

Cloud

Perhaps it means that even if a monk acts unskillfully, they are dedicated to the path and to liberation and will overcome their unskillful tendencies by directed effort, whereas lay practitioners may remain stuck in their routines and habits.

riverflow

What do you expect from a really hardcore monk like Dogen in the Mahayana tradition?

riverflow

I think Dogen's reasoning is the monastery provided more opportunities to overcome violations of the precepts than as a layperson. Was he correct in this assertion? Maybe so, maybe not.

Dakini

If he breaks the 10 precepts, why is he still a monk? Why hasn't he been disrobed?

Monks are no less prone to remaining stuck in their habits. It all depends on the monk and his level of dedication. Same with lay practitioners.

pegembara

Those monks likely had greater samvega than the "lay persons".

Samvega was what the young Prince Siddhartha felt on his first exposure to aging, illness, and death. It's a hard word to translate because it covers such a complex range--at least three clusters of feelings at once:


the oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and alienation that come with realizing the futility and meaninglessness of life as it's normally lived;
a chastening sense of one's own complacency and foolishness in having let oneself live so blindly;
and an anxious sense of urgency in trying to find a way out of the meaningless cycle.

http://herenow.org/wwwArticles/samvega.html

ThailandTom

Have you looked into what the 10 precepts are? The precepts concerning actions of the mind are pretty hard to keep in line 24/7.

As far as superior or not, we should not really judge or look at people in this way, that is just my thought on that

Cinorjer

Dogon was a genius who contributed the amazing insight that correct practice IS enlightenment. There is nothing out there to "get". Enlightenment is what you do, not what you become. However, to be a Buddha, to him, also meant spending every moment of your life focused on living the Dharma.

BUT he had his faults. Dogon was born to a noble family, had an upper class education in the arts that shows in his poetry and writing, and even as a monk was something of an elitist and certainly was a traditionalist. Yes, he firmly believed in the superiority of the monastic tradition in producing a Buddha (remember, to him living a proper monastic life including meditation WAS being a Buddha). He loved the strict rules of the Chinese Chan temples and instituted his own set of strict rules for his monks to follow. He believed the typical lay life of household and work was incompatible with the way. In several of his surviving writings he tries to make the strange logical case that since all the recognized Patriarchs and Buddhas and great Buddhist thinkers written about in their temple library were monks, then only monks were capable of being Buddhas.

Got that logical crime? Try this version:

1. Traditional Buddhist temples full of monks only recognize their own temple monks as Patriarchs or Buddhas.

2. There are no lay people recognized as Patriarchs or Buddhas in the temple libraries, only temple monks.

3. Therefore, lay people cannot become Buddhas.

Dogon. A fascinating mind at work.

federica

I don't buy it. It's just one opinion, from a Monk in one tradition.
Other mileage may vary....

seeker242

I don't see where the book says that Dogen is the one who said that. The book says Dogen was appealing to those words, which were the words of another ancient master. It's impossible to say without knowing the context in which they were said.

aura

Dogen said 'Even though a monk breaks the 10 precepts, he is superior to a lay person who observes the 5 precepts.'
Do you agree? Why and why not?

Dogen was a coach giving his team a pep talk in the sincere hope that they would not pass out all over the field from exhaustion. It was exactly what they needed and they loved him for it.
What is it that you seek?

Dakini

I assumed by "the 10 precepts" , the first 10 taken in preparation for the monkhood were meant, maybe that was my mistake. 1st precept: do not kill, etc.

zenff

Here’s an example of the "ten grave precepts of zen”.
http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,13,136&pageid=33

I respectfully disagree with the statement in the OP (be it Dogen’s statement or not).

I prefer a decent lay-person over an irresponsible idiot in robes.

StaticToybox

If he breaks the 10 precepts, why is he still a monk? Why hasn't he been disrobed?

I think it kinda depends on the degree of violation. Personally though I feel these precepts, when taken at face value, are like most religious rules: rather impossible to strictly adhere to at all times. But that's just my view, and I'm more of a "spirit, rather than letter, of the law" kind of guy.

Dakini

It's attitudes like: monastics are superior to lay people, that lead to monks being accorded special prestige by the societies in which they live. This prestige tends to evolve into a lax attitude toward monks on the part of the law enforcement community, which in turn leads to lawlessness among monks, especially sex crimes.

StaticToybox

It's attitudes like: monastics are superior to lay people, that lead to monks being accorded special prestige by the societies in which they live. This prestige tends to evolve into a lax attitude toward monks on the part of the law enforcement community, which in turn leads to lawlessness among monks, especially sex crimes.

I agree.

IronRabbit

I take issue with Dogen's reference to superiority - even though it is just a term - because it overlooks that without lay people - there would be no freaking monks - someone has to spawn the little tradition keepers!

SattvaPaul

I'm not an authority on Dogen in the slightest, but it seems that a lot of the time when he talks about "home departure", he doesn't mean that literally.