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Reaching the state of nirvana and the cessation of karma.
Keyouse
Explorer
Hello to you! I have some statements and questions that I am going to relay. I would love it if you wouldn't mind correctly me if I am wrong, elaborate on what I say, and answer questions that I have! It all pertains to
NIRVANA
KARMA
CONSCIOUSNESS
[1]: Nirvana is a 'state of mind', which is neither perception, nor non-perception.
[2]: Nirvana is a matter of owns one perception AND on a conventional level, nirvana is always pervading each and every moment, no matter what, as it is only a matter of perception.
[3]: Within this state, you create no karma, or once reached this state, your continuum, or stream of karma ceases OR stops continuing.
[4]: Why does statement [3] exist as truth? How is this so? If karma is CAUSE and EFFECT, how are their no CAUSES and EFFECTS while existing within nirvana? Is not the very state of existing creating karma?
Feel free to put your specific replies under each specific numbered question or statement, for organization and convenience on all of our eyes and brains!
Thank you very very much!
NIRVANA
KARMA
CONSCIOUSNESS
[1]: Nirvana is a 'state of mind', which is neither perception, nor non-perception.
[2]: Nirvana is a matter of owns one perception AND on a conventional level, nirvana is always pervading each and every moment, no matter what, as it is only a matter of perception.
[3]: Within this state, you create no karma, or once reached this state, your continuum, or stream of karma ceases OR stops continuing.
[4]: Why does statement [3] exist as truth? How is this so? If karma is CAUSE and EFFECT, how are their no CAUSES and EFFECTS while existing within nirvana? Is not the very state of existing creating karma?
Feel free to put your specific replies under each specific numbered question or statement, for organization and convenience on all of our eyes and brains!
Thank you very very much!
0
Comments
An empty mind makes no waves.
Actually nevermind, that's probably even more confusing. Sorry.
So then existing in a state where the mind is pure and not deluded, what would ACTIONS by 'me' in this enlightened state then be, if not karmically constituted?
What is 'existence' without karmically constituted phenomenon?
I'm not the best one to explain this. Really you should find an "enlightened" Buddhist teacher for such questions. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more help (maybe someone else will post something useful).
REALLY!! Thank you. Allow me to think a bit, before I repost! You may have basically answered my question.
But one question answered is one hundred questions unanswered.
there is only clear seeing. the process or verb. in such awakeness there is only what is.
the peace arises from the space, the gap between the arising form.
thus when karma is observable, one can influence its course.
the space itself is nirvana and samsara is merely clinging of natural karma.
freedom is found by allowing the space between form and at the same time totally engaging in karma.
because all things are constantly changing processes all is empty of inherent existence.
it's all about relationship and seeing clearly. the wisdom arises when we just sit with everything. we learn to relate and to accept what is. by accepting what is, spaciousness remains. in this spaciousness of being there is only freedom and contentment. but still everything arises and falls. all the forms arise and fall.
waves are made in the ocean of awareness. without the waves, no ocean. without the ocean, no waves.
hope this helps?
"they become one with it and no longer act outside it, but they are still subject to it". "
One with WHAT. Act outside of WHAT. Is there an 'outside' of the stream of karma?
What is it to become one with karma?
If you can not remove yourself from karmically constituted things, how can you act 'outside' of it?
And what you said seems to contradict what @Cloud had said: "That's exactly the point, there wouldn't be actions initiated by "you" at all. The delusion of the mind is that there's an independent entity or self that acts (independently). The enlightened mind no longer identifies with anything, with any aggregates, not even with itself as being any separate or independent phenomena. "
Here are some comments I had with a Zen Master on this very issue, he said this.:
The word "karma" means "action," and Buddhist action includes those of body, speech, and mind. The law of karma is that actions have results, and no matter what our intention, once we act, results arise immediately; because cause and effect are not two, they arise simultaneously.
The enlightened person is subject to the law of cause and effect and does not stand outside it. In Zen Buddhism, the koan of Hyakujo and the Fox, specifically addresses this issue. Here's the koan as it appears in The Gateless Gate (Mumonkan). After the koan, I've linked to a talk about it by Taitaku Pat Phelan, a Soto Zen Master at Chapel Hill Zen Center in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA:
Hyakujo's Fox
Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after the had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: `Who are you?'
The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'
Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'
At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' The he disappeared.
The next day Hyakujo gave an order through the chief monk to prepare to attend the funeral of a monk. `No one was sick in the infirmary,' wondered the monks. `What does our teacher mean?'
After dinner Hyakujo led the monks out and around the mountain. In a cave, with his staff he poked out the corpse of an old fox and then performed the ceremony of cremation.
That evening Hyakujo gave a talk to the monks and told this story about the law of causation.
Obaku, upon hearing this story, asked Hyakujo: `I understand that a long time ago because a certain person gave a wrong Zen answer he became a fox for five hundred rebirths. Now I was to ask: If some modern master is asked many questions, and he always gives the right answer, what will become of him?'
Hyakujo said: `You come here near me and I will tell you.'
Obaku went near Hyakujo and slapped the teacher's face with this hand, for he knew this was the answer his teacher intended to give him.
Hyakujo clapped his hands and laughed at the discernment. `I thought a Persian had a red beard,' he said, `and now I know a Persian who has a red beard.'
Mumon's comment: `The enlightened man is not subject.' How can this answer make the monk a fox? `The enlightened man is at one with the law of causation.' How can this answer make the fox emancipated? To understand clearly one has to have just one eye.
Controlled or not controlled?
The same dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error.
Here's the commentary by Taitaku Pat Phelan: http://www.intrex.net/chzg/pat35.htm
If an enlightened man is one with the law of causation, then how would it be possible for him to even act in a way that causes "further becoming"? Wouldn't his naturally occurring activity be action that does not create further karma to begin with, precisely because he has become one with the law of causation? If he has become one with it, then his naturally occurring activity would be completely in accordance with it so that it does not make any more further becoming? Is the below contrary to Zen? I don't see how it could be.
""Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak..."And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.
And the Zen Masters response:
Zen Buddhist teaching (which is an aspect of Mahayana teaching) is that the enlightened person is subject to the law of cause and effect. In other words, all beings are subject to the law of cause and effect. No being can escape it.
The path to the cessation of karma means the cessation of negative karma (negative actions of body, speech, and mind). This occurs in a moment of existence, and since no moment is permanent, this path must be actualized in every moment of a being's life. No human being can escape acting, including an enlightened being (a buddha), and those actions are subject to the law of cause and effect.
OK. So your definitely right that Nibbana is a state of mind. I'm not sure how it relates to perception, or non-perception, but it certainly is a mental experience that radically changes ones perspective.
[2]: Nirvana is a matter of owns one perception AND on a conventional level, nirvana is always pervading each and every moment, no matter what, as it is only a matter of perception.
Not sure what you mean by this. Nibbana is certainly only understandable through personal and direct experience. I'm not capable of explaining Nibbana to you with words, because it's like trying to put an entire book into one word. It's just impossible. You just have to experience it for your self. I'm not sure how Nibbana relates to the present moment. I would say your getting into really deep and philosophical stuff here - not sure how far that will get you.
[3]: Within this state, you create no karma, or once reached this state, your continuum, or stream of karma ceases OR stops continuing.
Hmm. This is a little bit complicated. I'm not sure what you mean by not creating karma, because for an arahant (one who has gained final knowledge of Nibbana), they are still capable of performing actions, such as walking, and speaking, and these actions all still have effects.
What does happen however is that once a being has attained this final knowledge, their mind no longer clings to any of the aggregates, and because of this they are no longer subject to future births. Being no longer subject to future births they are no longer subject to experiencing the fruits of the previous karmas (or actions).
[4]: Why does statement [3] exist as truth? How is this so? If karma is CAUSE and EFFECT, how are their no CAUSES and EFFECTS while existing within nirvana? Is not the very state of existing creating karma?
There is no cause and effect in Nibbana because for one who has attained Nibbana there is no longer ignorance (lack of direct experience of four noble truths). Because ignorance is abolished, craving can no longer arise. With no craving there can no longer arise becoming. With no becoming, birth can not occur. With no birth, no death.
There are effects (results) and these effects have causes (actions) that created them. Mental formations(thoughts) are actions also. Karma is your effects that are a result of your actions. You own your Karma or so it would appear, and are conditioned by your past actions into the present moment (re-born if you like.)
Actually there is no you, as you perceive yourself, which is as a separate independent permanent entity, to own the results of your actions. As you move toward awakening you can see that you no longer need to be limited by the idea of yourself as something separate. This realization is just seeing for yourself the way it is. But direct seeing is hard to do and clinging to false self is strong. So we meditate to calm the mind and see the way things really are.