The More I Practice and The More I Read..

ThailandTom

It seems that the lay life of a practioner can be filled with happiness and peace, but not liberation or cessation of suffering. The buddha gave advice and precepts to lay people, but to the Bhikkhus there are far more stringent precepts, the dhamma as it should be IMO.


Uposatha Sutta
http://buddhasutra.com/files/uposatha_sutta.htm

Guhatthaka Sutta
http://buddhasutra.com/files/guhatthaka_sutta.htm

To me and from my point of view, it seems that you follow buddhism to improve your life, to deal with duhkha, or you follow the path because you wish to attain cessation, thus being ordained.

Cloud

Learning to lessen craving and attachment is like growing up. The further you go, the less you want, and one day you find that your life isn't anything like it used to be. Unlike natural "growing up" though, you must choose to continue on this path and to put in effort until there's nothing left to do (as far as liberation). Not everyone takes it as far as it can go, and there is a place where holding onto a worldly life clashes with the need to detach. We can come back to the world to help other people, but really we do need to leave it for a time to finish what we started.

Good luck Tom.

federica

I think I disagree. I don't honestly believe attaining cessation is the exclusive privilege of those who choose ordination.
I think both ways of life present enormous challenges, and I think application of the Dhamma depends on the individual, not their circumstance.

ThailandTom

Well, when one makes the move to become ordained, they are most likely at a point where they do not have issues with sleeping on the floor, they can see how material objects cause suffering, they most likely have reached that point where the conditions are right for them to make such a life changing decison.

I personally, (and this is just an opinion) cannot see how a lay person can become fully liberated unless they follow the 10 precepts, even abstaining from sex and relationships of such a nature, does not eat meat, hunt meat or kill any living being intentionally, abstains from gossip and lying, keeps a mindful and clean mind and follows the 8 fold path 100%. If they owned a house, what if a few dozen mosquitos were in the room, what if somebody broke into their house and had no weapon but was intent on taking whatever they desired...

federica

What if, what if, what if.... Are you saying a Monk would not have those decisions to make if someone broke into the monastery? Some Monks eat meat, too....
I'm not sure I follow your logic.
It's the Intention, as we know. A Monk may follow every precept to the letter, and still not 'get it'.
If Ordaining is so much more of a sure thing, why are there still so many monks striving to achieve liberation.....?

ThailandTom

As Ajahn Chah said, ''if you strive for liberation, you will not attain it'' and then he laughed. But yes I see where you are coming from, I just cannot see how in a modern day society one can go to work, have a dwelling, own posessions etc and attain cessation.

Maybe also it would be important to add that since the time of the buddha and the dhamma was founded, a lot has changed, monks with ATM cards and money, eating meat etc, we are all humans so yes I guess it is down to the individual. There are always 'bad'monks and nuns, and I am sure there always has been.

But for me personally, I really cannot see the lay life working out for me, and have not done for a while now

federica

And that is, I guess, what it boils down to.
"What do I believe is best for me?"
You cogitate, ruminate, ponder and conclude.

But I think one thing is for sure:
There can be no Peace, no Joy and no Stability in your heart, if the things you say, are different to the things you do.

ThailandTom

Are you referring to me or 'you' as a general term?

Cloud

It's said in the Theravada tradition that if a lay practitioner is fortunate enough to have ceased craving to the stage of Once-Returner, upon the advancement to Non-Returner (Anagami) they will leave the worldly/householder life at once, the two styles of living being incompatible (or the worldly mind and its cravings being incompatible with the liberated mind). One can choose to leave that life sooner to more easily facilitate liberation, which is the purpose of the monastic tradition that the Buddha founded.

The mind can alternate between grasping and letting go for a time (this is part of the progression of practice), but to put down the burden and not pick it up again is hard. It is fundamentally an issue of both choice and state-of-mind, which is why we each have our own goals and decide how best to implement them. It's completely okay to be a lay Buddhist and want liberation, but that does mean that if we succeed our way of thinking and of living will change, and so we should reconcile with that fact and be accepting of that change. To want both cessation of suffering and to always live a worldly/householder life... now that would be a paradoxical craving!

SattvaPaul

I think it's from discussions like this that Mahayana developed. :rolleyes:

ThailandTom

I myself have been drawn to the Mahayana way of thinking about things.

SattvaPaul

For me it allows for a wider scope, such as the possibility of becoming fully enlightened while leading a lay life. Though as Fed said above it's not necessarily that cessation is the only privilege of the ordained in Therevada.

Having said that, I myself may become a monk one day. I have this idea that I'll do it when I'm 60, after I've become a millionaire and have tried everything :hair:

federica

Are you referring to me or 'you' as a general term?

Sorry.
'You' Generic, not 'you' specific.

Should have clarified.

ThailandTom

lol, I have had the idea for nearly three years and with each passing month the conditions seem to be accumilating. It would mean 'leaving' certain people out of my life and they will not fully understand, to me that is the hardest part, not the money or house or objects, but the fact that people who love and care for me will not understand

CaliGuy819

"All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. "

Why are these things unwholesome? I listen to Buddhist music. I've also heard it at temples. Are they violating this?

federica

.....to me that is the hardest part,.......the fact that people who love and care for me will not understand

And that's why I said that ultimately, we must ask ourselves, "What do I believe is best for me?"
Those who do not understand, you can never convince, save through your determined efforts to practice as you know you must.
Those who do understand, will remain in your mind as a blessing and generous spirit for your continued vocational practice.

We can please all of the people, some of the time....
if you hesitate, because of what you might lose, the greatest defeat is for yourself.

ThailandTom

@CaliGuy819 I personally prefer to resort to the sutras as that is the closest thing one can get to what the buddha actually taught. With time things change, inevitably, so some monks thinks it is okay to play music and so forth. If you want to, go and do it, but there was a path laid down over 2,500 years ago and I regard it as the true path.

CaliGuy819

So you do not listen to any music, or watch tv, or any performances of any type?

ThailandTom

To be honest I have no TV right now, I have not gone to a concert in well, the last time was 2008 and it was more of a festival, I rarely listen to music, but that is besides the point-the point I am trying to make is these things can be a hindrance to the path, which is why the buddha spoke of them in such a way, in the same way getting sloshed on whisky is a hindrance. See that I said CAN be a hindrance

seeker242

It seems that the lay life of a practioner can be filled with happiness and peace, but not liberation or cessation of suffering.

That is not what the Pali Cannon says.

"Although there are about 3,000 lay sotapannas mentioned in the Pali Canon, at least 90 sakadagamis, at least 500 anagamis, and about 21 lay arahants mentioned in the Pali Canon"

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Lay_arahant

Of course there are many more monks, but to say it's not possible contradicts the scriptures of the Cannon.

ThailandTom

That has been established, it is possible, but it depends on he individual and I am pretty sure it is harder to attain such states of consciousness whilst leading a lay life when you consider the population as a whole.

"There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening...persistence as a factor for Awakening...rapture as a factor for Awakening...serenity as a factor for Awakening...concentration as a factor for Awakening...equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk -- in dependence on virtue, established on virtue, having developed and pursued the seven factors for Awakening -- attains to greatness and prosperity in terms of mental qualities."

caz

It seems that the lay life of a practioner can be filled with happiness and peace, but not liberation or cessation of suffering. The buddha gave advice and precepts to lay people, but to the Bhikkhus there are far more stringent precepts, the dhamma as it should be IMO.


Uposatha Sutta
http://buddhasutra.com/files/uposatha_sutta.htm

Guhatthaka Sutta
http://buddhasutra.com/files/guhatthaka_sutta.htm

To me and from my point of view, it seems that you follow buddhism to improve your life, to deal with duhkha, or you follow the path because you wish to attain cessation, thus being ordained.

Its depends Tom there have been many great lay practitoners within my own tradition Drontompa was one of them he fully relied upon his spiritual guide and applied all of his instructions in a faultless manner and practised the entire meaning of Buddha's teachings

MindGate

I've often thought this myself. I agree with Tom on this one.

ThailandTom

Yes everything is subject to change, even the dhamma-which it has obviously. I logically just try and get to the core of the actual teachings from the founder of 'our' religion, not what has been changed or lost in translation, if he reached liberation and said to his followers at his death that the dhamma should be your teacher, then to me it is.

However, I know it is said that anybody can become awoken at any given moment, I disagree and so does the dalai lama. It boils down to mental disposition, individuality and if somebody has a disease of the mind, then that too would be a great hindrance.
So, even if somebody who follows the buddhas teachings to the down to the tee, but they can still faulter as caz pointed out. It is down to the person.

Tikal2012

The Buddha said that not one of his lay practitioners had attained final knowledge. However he did declare that most of his lay disciples, which was a LOT had attained stages of Nibbana all the way up to non returner.

ThailandTom

I guess you accidently 'pre-posted', I shall await your final post

wondering

Everyone has a different understanding of what the Buddha taught, as it should be. We all have our own personal dilemmas, demons, challenges, strengths and weaknesses that we bring to our practice and understanding of what Buddhism teaches and what we learn to "practice" by learning the teachings. So we travel along our path doing the best we can, monk or layman. Eventually, if we are sincere in our search for our own truth, we find it. Monk or layman it doesn't matter. The raft has taken us across the great search for our own nature. It doesn't matter if you renounce the world and all of the trappings, because becoming a monk has the same world of trappings, they just look different.

ThailandTom

Thankyou for that logical and precise point of view, it does illustrate things quite clearly. I in fact about 2 hours ago finally realized the concept of dependent oringination. I watched this video on youtube which was of an amerian college lecturer giving a class on emptiness. She actually made everything click for me with regards to DO, the three different ways that it is fundamental to our understanding. For me this is somewhat of a step forward because I have always half understood the concept and it had frustrated me, but now it is clear

federica

Ooook! Link??

ThailandTom

you want the link, okay-it is a 5 part video but it seemed to actually illustrate everything with regards to dependent origination so that I finally fully understood.
Here is the link to the first part.

andyrobyn

Hi Tom, I watched the first part of the video, however can not find the next four ... here is a link to a video which explains the relationship between emptiness and compassion which addresses the point you raised in the first post about progress as a lay person as I experience it, hope it is helpful

.

ThailandTom

That did help with some things, thank you very much. It helped a lot of the concept of how compassion is generated, I knew of the three poisons before this video but that was also linked in. The fact that emptiness is not an entity also helped me to understand, it is not the 2 extremes that he was exaplaining, yet I do not fully understand emptiness. As he mentioned, if you notice that your compassion and well being does not improve with practice your missing something, so I am missing something for sure. I will keep walking though

Thank you again

Jeffrey

Tom some of the compassion comes from relieving from the sense of suffering in the world. As you become free you naturally become more loving and want to share that. And you know its possible. We are already compassionate but we are just grasping to: this life, sense pleasures. We are also angry so we cultivate a crack of warmth which creeps in as we learn to let go of strong emotion and just watch it. You remember that you are angry at someone you care about rather than "I have to be right and get my way". (which doesn't mean doormat! Jus we lighten up). Finally we do not know how to accomplish any of those things because we are ignorant. And so we study teachings (hear and this includes 'non-dharmic' that are good), we practice with our life to see (contemplate), and we meditate to master this unbinding from the sense of smallness to be big enough to lighten up, to concretize existence (or hiding from reality), and we become mindful of the senses/desires. In meditation.

During this lifetime you may mostly work on one of those last three. I think most anyone on this forum is still learning dharma methods so that is very important. We also have the challenge of integrating the dharma into a modern 21st century life. Finally, meditation teachings are so available and this is an opportunity to meditate. The space is always there. The space to do any of these three things. We are not 'bad' for not filling that space for mediation. Whatever we do that is our practice.

federica

... I watched this video on youtube which was of an amerian college lecturer giving a class on emptiness.

Hi Tom, I watched the first part of the video, however can not find the next four ...

Yeah, I tried like stink to get all 5 lecture parts in order, and I failed completely.
I did manage to get her point, but as the lecture is disjointed...
Maybe you could find all 5 in order for us... I'd like to see them all.

[I'm trying to get over my inherited resistance to all things American-schmaltz.... she seems to be sugar coating stuff in an unnecessarily saccharine way... and the way she pronounces the Himalayas... (Him-arly-as....)just grated on my teeth....)]

ThailandTom

lol, I know what you mean by american sugar coating, and I do not mean to offened anybody on here, but sometimes even an accent can create attitation within me - not good.
It appears that now only 1 and 5 exist But I really do not know what it was that hit home, I think it was the way she related that without the oxygen her lungs would not exist, without the lungs the trees would not exist etc, that one angle on DO helped me to see how everything depends on everything. But also observing my own actions and words and how they affect people or situations, visa versa, has also helped.

Sometimes however when I get an insight, the next day it seems I have forgotten the valdility of it, or I do not understand it fully again, grrrr :grumble:

federica

I managed to get to three....

if it's any consolation, she's a bit repetitive.
but I like her cloud analogy, and how she explains causation, interconnectedness, transformation, manifestation and continuation, as all being definitions of Emptiness and Dependent Origination and Impermanence.

ThailandTom

She is probably a bit repetative as she is teaching religious studies to people who may know nothing of buddhism, or some at least. It is interesting that she started with emptiness and not where everybody mostly does, but yes, I gained a lot from her to be honest

federica

I like that she told the class that a good analogy of this process is that what we loved as kids, and thought of as important, is now probably faded and insignificant.
She illustrated by asking a guy what he put down, and he said 'soft-ball'. She asked him if it was still important or significant, to which he replied, "hell, yeah!"
"You're supposed to say no!" she laughed. But we got the point....!

ThailandTom

Yes there were a variety of anaoglies that struck me, The fact that we do not see our physical self change until we meet up with someone after a few months or years, I even tonight have again seen this void I want to fill and I thought of what I would fill it with. As she stated, we are always thinking of what to do next, 'if I have this then everything will be better'. My first thought of fillinf the void was alcohol which I dismissed even by walking past two 7/11s, then it came to mind that I do not need to fill the void, I could watch some mindless video on the net or construct something, but I do not have to fill the void.

I spoke of the 7/11 journey, well a friend of mine from norway is having trouble with a girl (there's something new, relationship issues) anyway, my gf use to work with this girl and she set them up. My gf did not know her too well at the time, but she is quite a bad egg so to speak. I sat with my friend over food watching his suffering, his words such as 'everything never goes the way you want it to' and so forth. He is in a personal hell of attachment right now and I tried my best to help his suffering, and then I came home with my gf.
One thing though, he has broken leg and he wanted some tramadol, not just a strip of 10 but 50, so I went to the pharmacy for him. 50 pills of tramadol equates to 2,500mg, so I hope I have not done wrong in the sense he has the equipment for an easy suicide, although I do not think he is at that far depressed.

federica

"I do not need to fill the void"....

That's profound.
It's a void - but do we really need to fill it?

"(there's something new, relationship issues)"....
I have to say, I laughed.....!

Kudos to you for dismissing the alcohol, dude. Good one. well done.

ThailandTom

well I was drinking every night until last week when I broke it down into every other day, but last night I sat on the floor in my house with my gf and looked at the beer before me and said in thai, I need to change this, it has to change. I see why it is a precept fully now, for multiple reasons, but most importantly whilst drunk we conduct ourselves in quite an ignorant fashion, especially if I drink a bottle of whisky with some beer.

I thought the relationship quote may crack a smile considering your outlook on life sometimes.

I also viewed how my gf feels so guilty in setting these two people up, and now seeing him as he is. I tried to explain that she should not feel feel one ounce of guilt as she was not to know how things would transpire, her inttentions were good, but obviously she still does feel guilty.

It is strange in a way, I feel my eyes have been opened up to the world in some way, as if I have awoken (no i am not one of those self proclaiming liberation people) but I think I did read somewhere that there are several stages of awakening, not just one, but I could be wrong.

federica

Whether you read it or not, I think you're right.
I even think the Buddha himself may have experienced several moments of awakening, such as when he nearly starved himself to death, but realised "Hang on - this isn't working!"....

ThailandTom

I am pretty sure that I read it a long time ago, but I have not seen it within any of the sutras that I have read-there being such a vast number of them. But there are moments when you are awoken if you will to an aspeect of reality or the dharma, where you realize it in all it's entirety. Of course, this is not enlightenment, I just consider there to be moments of awakening that can happen

federica

I completely agree.
It makes sense, because sometimes, you can hear a particular lesson time and time, over and over, again. And you don't get it.
Then, one day, you see it written down, or you hear it spoken in a new way, and it's put to you with different language - but it resonates, and you think, "Oh.....damn.....I geddit now!! I really do! Jeesh, how come I took so long - ?"
But it did.

And that's ok.

Arn

A few things I've noticed just to add to the discussion on whether a monastic or ordained life is more likely to result in liberation compared to a lay person:
I believe it is awefully hard at times to change patterns of behaviour in the same environment. If you and your gf have a habit of drinking at home every night it may be awefully hard to change that habit. It may be easier to become ordained than to stop drinking in that house with that gf!
BUT is the less stressful path the one more likely to result in total liberation? I remember listening to a CD by Ajun Brahm where he talked about rejecting some money offered to him personally because he didnt want to deal with temptation of materialism or the angst of managing the money. Isnt that just a cop-out?? Isnt that just AVOIDING dealing with your grasping, avoiding dealing with the cause of your suffering?
So, you (or I) could join a monastery, but is that avoiding dealing with our issues and with our wanting? I've heard of some masters who actually keep annoying people around them so that they can learn to accept everything - including the annoying person

ThailandTom

Funny masters they are I am sure. My gf does not drink, well on rare occasions she will ask for a class of beer if I am drinking but that is rare, and then she will fall asleep anyway. The drinking side of things is down to me alone. That being said, I am fully determined not to drink alcohol today, nor do I intend to tomorrow, but take each day at a time right?

Coming back to the original topic of discussion hered, as it has been said I think it really does come down to mental disposition, the individual. Some monks derobe and get married, as do nuns. Some lay buddhists practice their whole life and do not get very deep into the dharma.

I took myself out of the UK to Thailand and I have come to realize that in a lay society, it does not matter where you are in the world, it has to come from you. That saying, 'if you have shit in your pocket, wherever you go it will still smell'' (sorry for the language)

ThailandTom

By the way, if you you tube ''buddhist emptiness explained'' you should find all 5 of that californian lecturer's videos... should