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@taiyaki You are proclaiming yourself to be an arya, a noble one, devoid of self-view, superstition, and doubt. If this is so ... :bowdown:
Even further, you state that you have ended suffering and met the frution of the path. If this is so ... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I wish I could meet you in person so that I might determine if these proclamations are true.
when we look we cannot find shit. yet here things are. there is a body, mind, consciousness, forms, etc. but none of it is graspable or even findable. this is what we all experience.
thus i look for grasping and i cannot find it. how can i release grasping if there is nothing to be grasped or even if i cannot find the process of grasping. where the fuck is it?
@Jeffrey The hinderances prevent me from letting go of the self view. Specifically, I am still hindered by sensual desire, anger/illwill, sloth/torpor, restlessness/anxiety, and doubt.
When I am hurt I think, "I am hurt." When another trespasses upon me I think "they have done me wrong." This is self view and a source of suffering. It is not an easy thing to be from from. To gain the level of stream-entrant is a greater triumph than birth in the highest of heavens. If one was to meet a stream-entrant it would be grander than meeting a god.
@Talisman it's just a thought, all thoughts can be an object of awareness. if all things can become objects (that are not locatable) are they you? even this awareness can be turned into an object of awareness.
also when you look inside yourself, can you find anything? i can't and i bet neither can you.
@Talisman, but you overcome all the hindrances in moments albeit.. you are wounded and then you overcome! You are hooked on a sense desire and then you overcome it... You doubt.... and then you regain confidence...
In moments the hinderances can be overcome, that is the point of mindfulness. It doesnt mean that suddenly "oh Im perfect and no longer suffer" no there is work to be done if I wish to tackle and destroy the lingering sense of self. If it were easy it wouldn't be such a big deal.
this goes against everything you've been asserting. there is no self to get rid of or destroy. keep looking, keep penetrating. go 100%, your whole world depends on you.
i'm asking you to look right now. look inside/outside yourself.
where is grasping? where is self?
don't parrot me words from the buddha (who i know is enlightened, awakened and free). these words don't mean much if they aren't self evident. they are words, just words.
i am asking you again. examine for yourself. where are you and where is this attachment or grasping?
"In the absolute sense of inter-connectivity, the liberation attained by any man or woman taught by the Buddha is an extension of the Buddha's self-attained liberation. They are one and the same."
@Talisman, I asked my lama and she said it is correct to say that there is no indestructible heart essence.
We don't have to say that it is a reality as such. She continues that nonetheless we have experiences of openness, clarity, and sensitivity that are reliable as qualities in our experience but they are not anything and not even distinguishible from eachother. And they have significance and meaning. But nothing we can hold up as *it*.
[U]But she made clear that IHE/OCS is just an idea.[/U] And she said that it is possible that someone is saying one thing or another for a good reason and it is also possible that they are not (saying for a good reason).
It is a little confusing because the term was introduced to me (OCS) as a part of a course.
"In the absolute sense of inter-connectivity, the liberation attained by any man or woman taught by the Buddha is an extension of the Buddha's self-attained liberation. They are one and the same."
What makes you say that??
The liberation of the disciples is brought about as a consequence of the self-liberation of the buddha. As such the sravaka attainment is like the aftershock of an earthquake. Not the quake itself but inseperable from it as well.
ocs I have talked about already, but sorry for the abbreviation, just tired of typing.. OCS is openness clarity and sensitivity. Its often translated as: clear, luminous, and unimpeded.
Ah, indeed. However, they are all separate seismic activities. If they were all one and the same, then there would only be one earthquake. However, they are each distinct, because they occur one after the other.
@tikal2012 That's what I'm saying. They maintain their individual distinciton, but they would not have occured without the original quake occuring. So the disciples would not have achieved nirvana as disciples had the Buddha not achieved nirvana as a samyaksambuddha. In this way the disciples liberation is an extension of the Buddha's, although they can still be considered individual cases of enlightenment in a conventional sense.
no there is not a permanent abiding self linking "them"
There is the enlightenment of the Buddha and the Buddha's instruction that guides others to enlightenment as disciples. The enlightenment of the disciples is linked to the enlightenment of the Buddha in the way that a domino falling is linked to the original domino pushed by the law of causality.
What don't you understand about this?
The Buddha's enlightenment is like the birth of a star. The rays of light emanating from the star are like the Dharma preached by the Buddha. The planets and objects illuminated by the rays of light emanating from the star are like the disciples, awoken by the liberating insight of the Dharma. The illumination could not have occured without the pressence of the star, and so their illumination is dependent upon and causally linked to the birth of the star. In this way the illumination of the object is dependent upon the pressence of the object itself and the pressence of the light emanating from the star. Just like the enlightenment of the disciple is dependent upon the pressence of the disciple and the teaching of a living Buddha.
Comments
What obstructs you from letting go of the self view?
You are proclaiming yourself to be an arya, a noble one, devoid of self-view, superstition, and doubt. If this is so ... :bowdown:
Even further, you state that you have ended suffering and met the frution of the path. If this is so ... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I wish I could meet you in person so that I might determine if these proclamations are true.
everything is a process.
i have only a philosophical understanding at best.
you and i, we say the same thing. yet you suffer.
why is that? i honestly am asking you because it is something i've been asking and finding no answer to.
yet here things are. there is a body, mind, consciousness, forms, etc.
but none of it is graspable or even findable. this is what we all experience.
thus i look for grasping and i cannot find it. how can i release grasping if there is nothing to be grasped or even if i cannot find the process of grasping. where the fuck is it?
Sensitive...
Open...
As it is
As it is
The hinderances prevent me from letting go of the self view. Specifically, I am still hindered by sensual desire, anger/illwill, sloth/torpor, restlessness/anxiety, and doubt.
When I am hurt I think, "I am hurt." When another trespasses upon me I think "they have done me wrong." This is self view and a source of suffering. It is not an easy thing to be from from. To gain the level of stream-entrant is a greater triumph than birth in the highest of heavens. If one was to meet a stream-entrant it would be grander than meeting a god.
accept and be free!
i'm starting to think it is merely a belief in grasping, which gives the illusion of grasping.
even if grasping was, everything is changing. the image of grabbing air boobs pops into my head.
how the fuck do you grab space?
also when you look inside yourself, can you find anything? i can't and i bet neither can you.
rest in that for a bit.
You doubt.... and then you regain confidence...
Just saying..
there is no self to get rid of or destroy. keep looking, keep penetrating. go 100%, your whole world depends on you.
when you look for yourself, can you ever find it?
Okay ... here we go ...
Grasping is evident. How is grasping evident?
First there is evident old age and death (as well as the entire mass of suffering and despair).
Old age and death are conditioned by birth.
Birth is conditioned by becoming.
Becoming is conditioned by grasping/clinging/cleaving/attachment to sense pleasure, wrong views, ritual/superstition, and the doctrine of self.
This is how grasping is evident.
where is grasping? where is self?
don't parrot me words from the buddha (who i know is enlightened, awakened and free).
these words don't mean much if they aren't self evident. they are words, just words.
i am asking you again. examine for yourself. where are you and where is this attachment or grasping?
What makes you say that??
We don't have to say that it is a reality as such. She continues that nonetheless we have experiences of openness, clarity, and sensitivity that are reliable as qualities in our experience but they are not anything and not even distinguishible from eachother. And they have significance and meaning. But nothing we can hold up as *it*.
[U]But she made clear that IHE/OCS is just an idea.[/U] And she said that it is possible that someone is saying one thing or another for a good reason and it is also possible that they are not (saying for a good reason).
It is a little confusing because the term was introduced to me (OCS) as a part of a course.
So I apologize for the confusion
That's what I'm saying. They maintain their individual distinciton, but they would not have occured without the original quake occuring. So the disciples would not have achieved nirvana as disciples had the Buddha not achieved nirvana as a samyaksambuddha. In this way the disciples liberation is an extension of the Buddha's, although they can still be considered individual cases of enlightenment in a conventional sense.
There is the enlightenment of the Buddha and the Buddha's instruction that guides others to enlightenment as disciples. The enlightenment of the disciples is linked to the enlightenment of the Buddha in the way that a domino falling is linked to the original domino pushed by the law of causality.
What don't you understand about this?
The Buddha's enlightenment is like the birth of a star. The rays of light emanating from the star are like the Dharma preached by the Buddha. The planets and objects illuminated by the rays of light emanating from the star are like the disciples, awoken by the liberating insight of the Dharma. The illumination could not have occured without the pressence of the star, and so their illumination is dependent upon and causally linked to the birth of the star. In this way the illumination of the object is dependent upon the pressence of the object itself and the pressence of the light emanating from the star. Just like the enlightenment of the disciple is dependent upon the pressence of the disciple and the teaching of a living Buddha.