The Death of a Dictator

MindGate

As many of you may know, the ex-ruler of Libya, Gaddafi, was killed recently after a bloody and brutal revolution. From what I've heard, Gaddafi was found in a sewer, covered in human waste, and was taken above ground. He was then shot several times by his own people and apparently shot with his very own gold-plated gun. One of the amateur footage depicting Gadhafi's death shows him begging for his life, "Don't shoot, don't shoot." The 69-year-old tyrant asked the frenzied mob: "What did I do to you?" Someone among the mob shouted, "Keep him alive, keep him alive," following which gunshots were heard. This is the start of a new era for Libya. Now what will happen from here?

"The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed, the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress: the hate of men will pass and dictators die and the power they took from the people, will return to the people and so long as men die [now] liberty will never perish..." - Charlie Chaplin, "The Great Dictator"

ThailandTom

What happened in Egypt I ask you young mindgate? That was the first middle east revolution of this period and look what became of that country a few months later.

I think it boils down to the society that is left behind, well that is obvious, but the mentality of the people will differ slightly from country to country. Yes they all wanted one thing and that was a swift change in how things are run, but are they capable of building a society now Mr Dictator is dead? I guess we will just have to wait and see.... :coffee:

MindGate

I never said that good will come from this. I've heard that many leaders of the rebels actually want to install a strict theocracy. :facepalm:

ThailandTom

meh, it's their mess now, A lot of countries have something to say about the 'help' given with regards to military action, I wonder if the UN will stick around or just leave them to it.

Mountains

From what I've heard, Gaddafi was found in a sewer, covered in human waste, and was taken above ground.

Don't believe everything you hear in that case. There's plenty of video online showing what happened. A Predator drone (American) hit the convoy he was riding in, and they scattered to a drainage culvert for cover. The TNC fighters pulled him out of there and shot him. He wasn't covered in waste and it wasn't a sewer. It was a roadside drainage culvert.

MindGate

My mother and my girlfriend both must have been wrong then (they were the ones who told me) - or they were watching the news when the news was wrong.

Hubris

I was waiting for someone to post about this...I had considered it.

Like the death of Osama Bin Laden there is rejoicing in the loss of a human life by violent means. I was appalled at the footage that they have been showing over and over.

I was imaging how frightened the 69 year old tyrant was to be surrounded by hate, even though he has a history of some deplorable acts. He was not a young man, he was pleading for his life, outnumbered,beaten, shot and despised. What a terrible way to live your last moments on earth.

Such a proud moment. :scratch:

Jeffrey

Death is never pretty. However I wonder what a life this man had? I cannot imagine.

ThailandTom

you create your own hell, and the people who killed him were not exactly buddhist monks and nuns. Violent actions often result in returned violent acts, he was so say ruthless with his violence. I guess in his empire and through his ignorance he never saw it coming.
Now, where is the guy going to get re-born? That may be one unfortunate being!

MindGate

I was waiting for someone to post about this...I had considered it.

Like the death of Osama Bin Laden there is rejoicing in the loss of a human life by violent means. I was appalled at the footage that they have been showing over and over.

I made a thread when Osama died entitled "Rejoicing Over a Man's Death" in which I condemned such behavior.

Hubris

I made a thread when Osama died entitled "Rejoicing Over a Man's Death" in which I condemned such behavior.

All, I can say is, "great minds think alike!"

ThailandTom

So, I put the question to you guys (I am totally unbias here), what would you do with say osama or gadaffi, they obviously have done some terrible terrible things and in their minds they probably seem just in some way-but how would you deal with them if it was up to you? I am just curious

StaticToybox

Like with Bin Laden this was his karma coming to fruition. He led a brutal, violent regime. His death in turn was brutal and violent.

MindGate

So, I put the question to you guys (I am totally unbias here), what would you do with say osama or gadaffi, they obviously have done some terrible terrible things and in their minds they probably seem just in some way-but how would you deal with them if it was up to you? I am just curious

They could have been captured and put on trial by their own governments. Of course, most likely they would have been sentenced to death, but those aren't my governments and I don't get to choose the laws. I am anti-death penalty personally. I think life in prison would have surmised, but as I said, I'm not the ones who make the laws.

Mountains

Execution has been proven not to deter criminal behavior, and in cases like this, it does nothing but make a martyr out of a tyrant. There are still plenty of people in Libya who see Gadaffi as their hero (because he gave them power and made them rich). Had he rotted in prison for the rest of his life I think justice would have been better served.

But I also understand the level of hatred for this man. I have a Libyan friend who hadn't been back to his country in over 30 years because of the Gadaffi government's brutal repression of all dissent. I'm sure Mustafa will be most elated over his death.

It's all sad...

MindGate

Had he rotted in prison for the rest of his life I think justice would have been better served.

Taking this man who has lived as an extremely wealthy ruler who was above everyone and then tossing him in prison where he is considered below everyone, only living a meager, humble existence. Yes, this would have sufficed.

Cinorjer

So, I put the question to you guys (I am totally unbias here), what would you do with say osama or gadaffi, they obviously have done some terrible terrible things and in their minds they probably seem just in some way-but how would you deal with them if it was up to you? I am just curious

Put him where he can never hurt anyone again. It's so sad to see a man who might have helped make a positive difference in the world instead be the public face of so much death and suffering.

One man alone can only do so much damage. Many other people were just as bad, obeying his orders and even suggesting more evil acts. It took an entire family and tribe in a position of power working together to unload this much thoughtless cruelty onto their people. If another man or another tribe becomes rulers with no checks or balances, the same thing will happen all over. People don't learn. The Kings and Dictators don't say, "Hey the peasants might kill me if I go too far, so I better respect their rights and help them be happy!" Instead, the lesson is, "The first sign of discontent, I'm going to start shooting. The other guy wasn't hard enough on the ungrateful bastards!"

You can get rid of the King, but unless you change the system, all you get is a different King and ruling family with unlimited power. Sometimes instead of family or tribe we call it a political party. Welcome to the human race. Selfish desires infect individual minds, but those minds work together to form a society.

Hanzze

A man may plunder
as long as it serves his ends,
but when others are plundered,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.

A fool thinks,
'Now's my chance,'
as long as his evil has yet to ripen.

But when it ripens,
the fool falls into pain.

Killing,
you gain your killer.
Conquering,
you gain one who will conquer you;
insulting, insult;
harassing, harassment.

And so,
through the cycle of action,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.

from Sangama Sutta: A Battle
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.015.than.html

Therefor:

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.

And the wheel of suffering would have an end and it would be not just another rebirth/arise before the next death.

*smile*

Tosh

Like with Bin Laden this was his karma coming to fruition. He led a brutal, violent regime. His death in turn was brutal and violent.

But lots of good people have died violently too: Gandhi for example; he was shot, yet I've heard him described as a Boddhisatva.

Is there a Buddhist explanation for this, other than it was karma from a previous life?

zenff

But lots of good people have died violently too: Gandhi for example;

Good point.

Mountains

Lots of good people have died violently - name any group in history: Jews, Armenians, anybody go got in Genghis Khan's way, anybody who ran afoul of the Inquisition, women of Salem, Massachusetts, Australian natives, North, Central, and South American natives, etc, etc, etc. I'd say in fact that probably a lot more really good people have died violent deaths at the hands of evil people than the other way around.

ThailandTom

There are karmic laws and there are the natural laws of the world, the world of experience. I would go into detail and quote some people but right now my left hand is so crippled I cannot be arsed to type much!

Most of you guys know all of that anyway

Hubris

How about back to basics: Two wrongs do not make a right.

StaticToybox

Like with Bin Laden this was his karma coming to fruition. He led a brutal, violent regime. His death in turn was brutal and violent.

But lots of good people have died violently too: Gandhi for example; he was shot, yet I've heard him described as a Boddhisatva.

Is there a Buddhist explanation for this, other than it was karma from a previous life?

Yes, lost of good people have died violently. Doesn't change the fact that Gaddafi's death was his karma coming to fruition. That good people die violently is a result of the collective karma that each and every one of us contributes to.

StaticToybox

How about back to basics: Two wrongs do not make a right.

Not a matter of wrong or right, just a matter of is.

Jeffrey

Nice post Cinorjer

Hanzze

Lots of good people have died violently - name any group in history: Jews, Armenians, anybody go got in Genghis Khan's way, anybody who ran afoul of the Inquisition, women of Salem, Massachusetts, Australian natives, North, Central, and South American natives, etc, etc, etc. I'd say in fact that probably a lot more really good people have died violent deaths at the hands of evil people than the other way around.

Ohhh, we need to be very carefully, if we misunderstand Bodhisattva it gives much rise to our big problem of "good people" in our world. *smile*

Yodhajiva Sutta: To Yodhajiva (The Warrior)

Then Yodhajiva[1] the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Yodhajiva the headman sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of warriors who said: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.003.than.html

Nothing comes from it self and compassion without wisdom is what the ware on