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It can be felt as the energy of emptiness, thus dharmakaya'd upon inception!
Study some Dzogchen texts for the non-dual logic of it all...
But... practice makes perfect... awareness is the blade that cuts through the dross of embodied identification. It's so sharp, it can even cut through itself!!!
Great, Hanzze and Taiyaki--no codeine for you two when you end up in the hospital with a broken limb. Sounds like you won't need it. You too, Vajraheart.
Great, Hanzze and Taiyaki--no codeine for you two when you end up in the hospital with a broken limb. Sounds like you won't need it. You too, Vajraheart.
I went in for stitches last year, it was a deep cut, it didn't hurt, just sensations, they gave me codeine anyway... I passed out for 24 hours. I've never been on that stuff before, straight black out! I guess I'm not as conscious as I would have hoped, lol!!
I just came across this, about the Buddha and his trials and tribulations in dealing with his all-too-human body:
"The Buddha was physically like any other buman being, subject to the laws of nature that made him vulnerable to fatigue, illness and death as described in the sutras. Instances of the Buddha's illnesses aren't rare in the sutras, which describe him as suffering constantly from back pain and stomach troubles. ... The Pali commentaries explain that the Buddha suffered backache in old age owing to the severe austerities practiced during the six years preceding his enlightenment. Moreover, the unsuitable meals taken during that period were responsible for dyspepsia that persisted throughout his life, culminating in his last serious illness of dysentary." From: The Concept of the Buddha: Its evolution from early Buddhism to the Trikaya, by Guang Xing.
Dakini I thought you might be able to appreciate this (short) bit from Buddhism Connect (a free email teaching student/teacher):
A student writes:
"I have a question from my meditation today - the way I feel with physical aches, what is aversion and what is Sensitivity?"
Lama Shenpen:
Aversion is sensitivity but it tends to have this overlay of 'I' don't like 'this' rather than a simple response of moving away from a stimulus in an appropriate way. So when there is no possibility of responding by moving away, the 'I' decides this is terrible - it makes a big deal out of the whole thing and regards the situation as 'it' and the whole thing is impossible to escape.
Actually the appropriate response in this case would be to simply rest in the sensation and respond to it just as it was - which might be to notice that that there is no 'I' that is disturbed by an 'it'.
The so called 'I' is not separate from the 'it' and actually there is no problem - simply intense sensitivity � open, spacious, aware, mysterious - like a whole world opening up - a sphere of delight and wonder�could be ... but it's hard to be that simple!
That is why we have to train.
Student:
"Am I labelling it with ego saying, 'I don't want this', one of the three poisons ... or am I just experiencing the natural response of Sensitivty to a lack of its characteristic well-being?"
Lama Shenpen:
You could choose to experience the natural response of Sensitivity which is well being. The idea of something wrong or a lack of well-being is an overlay of some kind � it's the complicating process of prapancha. (Conceptual contrivance and the world of our experience created out of and distorted by our concepts. Enlightenment is free of prapancha)
I find it interesting that the Buddha experienced fatigue and back pain. I'm not surprised that he would feel pain, but I didn't know there were texts that detailed this. I'm sure he didn't cling to that pain and discomfort, and made the best of it. But I'm intrigued by Vajraheart's report of getting deep stitches for an injury, and only noticing "sensations". :om: <--- Vajraheart, on the surgical table.
The Vajrayana's claims to superiority have always bothered me and have been a great obstacle. Not to mention Dzogchen (oh, we are the highest of the highest of the highest).
...and likewise Theravadin's claim of authenticity. I'm getting fed up with "Buddhism" actually and that is one of the reasons.
It is people saying those things ... my teacher has never made any such claim, does not tell me what to think or do.
I just came across this, about the Buddha and his trials and tribulations in dealing with his all-too-human body:
"The Buddha was physically like any other buman being, subject to the laws of nature that made him vulnerable to fatigue, illness and death as described in the sutras. Instances of the Buddha's illnesses aren't rare in the sutras, which describe him as suffering constantly from back pain and stomach troubles. ... The Pali commentaries explain that the Buddha suffered backache in old age owing to the severe austerities practiced during the six years preceding his enlightenment. Moreover, the unsuitable meals taken during that period were responsible for dyspepsia that persisted throughout his life, culminating in his last serious illness of dysentary." From: The Concept of the Buddha: Its evolution from early Buddhism to the Trikaya, by Guang Xing.
No doubt!
But, he didn't experience these sensations from the same state of contracted awareness from which those whose consciousness is firmly immeshed in physical identity experience the very same. There is an all encompassing bliss that penetrates all being from the perspective of the dharmakaya, as in the inter-dependency and emptiness of all being realized directly through the essential light of personal awareness.
The "pain in the back" arises dependently and is empty of inherent existence, awareness of this fact also penetrates this fact and self liberates the sensation upon it's arising within the mind-stream (also dependently arisen and empty), the subsequent condition of experience arising due to this union of insight and wisdom is bliss, not to be confused with sensual or chemical pleasure measured through scientific instruments.
This bliss that is inclusive of the garb of physical suffering and ailment, and does not reflect the psychological condition of a desire to, run away from it by any means necessary.
One does not run from pain and suffering anymore, but rather through viscerally experienced insight and wisdom, one embraces every moment as an expression of blissfully creative inter-vibratory dharmakaya, the net of self transcendence in every moment, through every moment.
I don't know anyone who disregards Vajrayana as "not Buddhism" if he or she has attained any bit of wisdom at all. In open discussions, some people express concerns about some of the practices and elements as taught today, mainly dealing with esoteric and tantric teachings. But every school of Buddhism here takes its place on the debate stand from time to time, including my own Zen practice. ("Transmission outside of scriptures? Kill the Buddha? What nonsense! The Buddha didn't teach Buddha Nature!") That's what public forums are for, to find out what other people think. Sometimes you find out what feels like deep wisdom to you comes across as nonsense to others. But then you realize the reverse is true: that nonsense out there might be somebody's deep wisdom. Go figure.
Buddhism is different. Of course it is. And Buddhism has to have a definition. It can't be anything goes. But are Buddhists different? We're just people struggling to find meaning in life and driven by tribal instincts to cheer for our own team.
Samsara is grasping to experience as outside and self inside. Nirvana is realizing that... well I don't know I guess I'll have to keep practicing and find out!
Comments
Study some Dzogchen texts for the non-dual logic of it all...
But... practice makes perfect... awareness is the blade that cuts through the dross of embodied identification. It's so sharp, it can even cut through itself!!!
We always find ourselves where we are.
"The Buddha was physically like any other buman being, subject to the laws of nature that made him vulnerable to fatigue, illness and death as described in the sutras. Instances of the Buddha's illnesses aren't rare in the sutras, which describe him as suffering constantly from back pain and stomach troubles. ... The Pali commentaries explain that the Buddha suffered backache in old age owing to the severe austerities practiced during the six years preceding his enlightenment. Moreover, the unsuitable meals taken during that period were responsible for dyspepsia that persisted throughout his life, culminating in his last serious illness of dysentary."
From: The Concept of the Buddha: Its evolution from early Buddhism to the Trikaya, by Guang Xing.
A student writes:
"I have a question from my meditation today - the way I feel with physical aches, what is aversion and what is Sensitivity?"
Lama Shenpen:
Aversion is sensitivity but it tends to have this overlay of 'I' don't like 'this' rather than a simple response of moving away from a stimulus in an appropriate way. So when there is no possibility of responding by moving away, the 'I' decides this is terrible - it makes a big deal out of the whole thing and regards the situation as 'it' and the whole thing is impossible to escape.
Actually the appropriate response in this case would be to simply rest in the sensation and respond to it just as it was - which might be to notice that that there is no 'I' that is disturbed by an 'it'.
The so called 'I' is not separate from the 'it' and actually there is no problem - simply intense sensitivity � open, spacious, aware, mysterious - like a whole world opening up - a sphere of delight and wonder�could be ... but it's hard to be that simple!
That is why we have to train.
Student:
"Am I labelling it with ego saying, 'I don't want this', one of the three poisons ... or am I just experiencing the natural response of Sensitivty to a lack of its characteristic well-being?"
Lama Shenpen:
You could choose to experience the natural response of Sensitivity which is well being. The idea of something wrong or a lack of well-being is an overlay of some kind � it's the complicating process of prapancha. (Conceptual contrivance and the world of our experience created out of and distorted by our concepts. Enlightenment is free of prapancha)
:om: <--- Vajraheart, on the surgical table.
But, he didn't experience these sensations from the same state of contracted awareness from which those whose consciousness is firmly immeshed in physical identity experience the very same. There is an all encompassing bliss that penetrates all being from the perspective of the dharmakaya, as in the inter-dependency and emptiness of all being realized directly through the essential light of personal awareness.
The "pain in the back" arises dependently and is empty of inherent existence, awareness of this fact also penetrates this fact and self liberates the sensation upon it's arising within the mind-stream (also dependently arisen and empty), the subsequent condition of experience arising due to this union of insight and wisdom is bliss, not to be confused with sensual or chemical pleasure measured through scientific instruments.
This bliss that is inclusive of the garb of physical suffering and ailment, and does not reflect the psychological condition of a desire to, run away from it by any means necessary.
One does not run from pain and suffering anymore, but rather through viscerally experienced insight and wisdom, one embraces every moment as an expression of blissfully creative inter-vibratory dharmakaya, the net of self transcendence in every moment, through every moment.
Everything is already, "unborn."
Samsara is Nirvana.
Buddhism is different. Of course it is. And Buddhism has to have a definition. It can't be anything goes. But are Buddhists different? We're just people struggling to find meaning in life and driven by tribal instincts to cheer for our own team.
I agree with Cinorjer officially :mullet: