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Perfect attainment of the fruit of enlightenment is non-attainment of anything.
- Surangama Sutra
[Perfect enlightenment is non-attachment to everything, while functioning with perfect compassion and wisdom naturally for everyone, as it realises that nothing should be attached to, since nothing can be truly grasped on to, even enlightenment and non-attachment.]
This is all good stuff @taiyaki and @Vajrahearts input is really great as well I can really get my rational mind around it if not my intuitive one. @Jeffrey's stuff is good as well.
I have not read through your full thread but one thought that came up was - why don't you study these things with a real master (as opposed to speculation such as the blind men and elephants parable..?)
The second is it reminded me of some articles written by a writer called "Bodhimind" at the time regarding Buddhism/Hinduism - which may (or may not) be of use
It's not, as Atman is a self existence while buddhanature is the lack of self existence.
The Atman is equal to Brahman, the all encompassing absolute, so is a monistic idealism.
The theory of Buddhanature is deep and subtle, and the deep and subtle differences are what have to be understood. At times it may sound the same, but within the greater context of the Buddhist teaching, it is not. Subtle differences are still real differences when it comes to understanding and intuitive insight. The view of Atman as Brahman leads to absorption, while the view of anatman, dependent origination and emptiness leads to cutting through.
Anatta + buddha nature = self aware. No subject/object.
Yes, but not as an inherent self existence, but rather arising due to the result of insight. So this too is dependently originated and empty.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but more eloquently said.
Perfect attainment of the fruit of enlightenment is non-attainment of anything.
- Surangama Sutra
[Perfect enlightenment is non-attachment to everything, while functioning with perfect compassion and wisdom naturally for everyone, as it realises that nothing should be attached to, since nothing can be truly grasped on to, even enlightenment and non-attachment.]
These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. There is... the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness. There is... the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And there is... the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
The individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way... investigated in this way... seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way... made to settle down in this way... unified in this way... concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way... made to settle down in this way... unified in this way... concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way... investigated in this way... seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents*.
— AN 4.94
*Effluents: Mental effluent, pollutant, or fermentation. Four qualities — sensuality (sensual attachments/cravings and aversion), views (false views pertaining to self and other related extreme views), craving for becoming, and ignorance — that "flow out" of the mind and create the flood of the round of death and rebirth.
Yes, you see how subtle he is? No one ever, as far as recorded history ever talked as subtle like this at the time that he did. Since him, of course, yes... But, the Shakyamuni is truly quite the muni of this era, the first turner of the current wheel of dharma. So abstract, yet rational at the same time, multi-dimensional, yet deeply practical.
Some excerpts from a great Dzogchen practice book (which I highly recommend: 'The Cycle of Day and Night', which is about integrating the practice from waking to sleep) by a great Dzogchen master, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
"(5) The first of the three topics is understanding the practice. "Understanding" (rtogs-pa) is not just reasoning (brtag-pa) and analyzing (dpyad-pa), but it relies upon transmission. Our view (lta-ba) is a way of seeing or looking at things and it may include analysis and explanation. But "understanding" is fundamentally an entering into a knowledge of that view experientially. When we have no concrete knowledge of this sort, we are dependent upon the descriptions and interpretations of others, and these may change from day to day. Without real knowledge, all phenomena (chos kun) are merely false images (bden-med gzugs-brnyan); they do not exist in a real sense, but are like so many reflections in a mirror. A kitten, not knowing the image in the mirror is his own reflection, pursues it as if it were a real playmate. In Dzogchen, all appearances (snang-ba) are understood to be the potency (rtsal) of the energy of the Bodhicitta or the primordial state. These appearances are the qualifications or ornaments of that state. When we enter into knowledge we have no doubt of this. Thus we may conclusively determine (kho-thag-chod) that appearances are a magical display of the mind (sems kyi cho-'phrul).
(6) The Nature of the Mind (sems-nyid) is from the very beginning void or empty (stong-pa) and without any self or concrete substance (bdag-med). But we should not think of mind as being a mere nothing (med-pa) because it has the clarity and limpidity of the mirror. This clarity (gsal-cha) exists unobstructedly and without interruption ('gags-med), just as the moon is reflected in the water in various ways. Thoughts arising in mind are the way in which the Nature of Mind manifests itself. But just as we must understand the reflections in order to understand the nature of the mirror, so we must examine thoughts to see where they arise, where they abide, and where they go. However, when we look into this matter, we discover that there is no place where thoughts arise or abide or go. Nothing can be affirmed and what we find is void or emptiness (stong-pa nyid). This is the real character of the mind. Now, even though this may be the case, thoughts (rnam-rtog) continue to arise without interruption ('gags-med). Therefore, what we find is a primal awareness of pure presence (rig-pa'i ye-shes) where there is no duality of emptiness (stong-pa nyid) on the one hand and clarity (gsal-ba) on the other. This primal awareness is natural and spontaneously self-perfected (rang-bzhin lhun-grub). At the level of mind (sems) we do not find this nonduality because mind operates in time, while the state of pure presence (rig-pa) lies beyond the limits of mind.
(7) When we recognize that appearances are mere ornaments of the real condition of existence (chos nyid rgyan), these appearances which arise to our alertly relaxed (lhug-pa) six senses are self-liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol) whenever they arise. The six sense aggregates (tshogs drug) are the five senses plus the mind (yid). The presence of appearances prior to forming any conception or judgment is called "clarity." Appearances (snang-ba) refer to the external world, whereas the passions or afflictions (non-mongs) and the karmic traces (bag-chags) refer to the world of inner experience. The manifestation of the internal state of pure presence is primal awareness (ye-shes). The arising of pure presence (rig-pa) never lacks in spontaneous self-perfection (lhun-grub), that is to say, its essential qualities, just as the rising sun does not lack its rays. Our passions only grow powerful because we are ignorant of the state of pure presence, and so consequently we follow after our passions. But when we find ourselves in the state of the pure presence of the passions, they do not dominate us nor do we have to suppress them because they are like the ornaments of our primordial state. Thus our passions are self-liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol) whenever they arise.
(8) Appearances and pure presence are inseparable (snang rig dbyer-med). When we recognize (ngos zin) this and find ourselves in this state, then the discursive thoughts arising which grasp at the duality (gnyis su 'dzin-pa'i rnam-rtog) of subject and object, are liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol). We do not try to block or reject them in any way, but we simply remain aware in the presence of their arising. There are three procedures for self-liberation in this case, depending upon the capacity of the practitioner: 1. self-liberation through bare attention (gcer grol), 2. self-liberation upon the arising of a thought (shar grol), and 3. self-liberation as such (rang grol). The term gcer means "bare or naked attention." But this is not yet real self-liberation because, in observing ourselves, we are still applying some degree of effort. For example, when a thought arises, we look it straight in the face and it liberates into its own condition. The term shar means "to arise." At the moment the thought arise, we do not have to make the effort to look it straight in the face, but just as it arises, we find ourselves in the state of presence which is Rig-pa and it self-liberates. True self-liberation (rang-grol) occurs when this capacity is fully developed. At this level, we have arrived at the continuity of the state of Rig-pa.
(9) This verse gives the essence of the matter. The awareness (shes-pa) arising at the first sudden instant (thol-'byung skad-cig dang-po) of sense contact is that pure presence (rig-pa) which is manifested without modification or correction (ma bcos) by the mind and which is not created or produced (skye-med) by any causes. What is this state of presence? It is a condition of existence (de-bzhin-nyid) transcending the limitations of both subject and object (gzung 'dzin mtha' las 'das-pa); it is a natural and authentic (gnyug-ma) self-originated primordial awareness of pure presence (rang-byung rig-pa'i ye-shes). The term de-bzhin-nyid indicates the state characterized by both primordial purity (ka-dag) and spontaneous self-perfection (lhun-grub)."
The following recent post by Loppon Namdrol reminds me of Acharya Mahayogi Shridhar Rana Rinpoche, who said in his article Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta, "However, the Buddhist Ultimate Truth is the absence of any such satta i.e. ultimately existing thing or ultimate reality. That is the significance of Shunyata - absence of any real, independent, unchanging existence (Skt. svabhava). And that fact is the Ultimate Truth of Buddhism, which is diametrically opposite to the Ultimate Truth of the Hindu Brahma. So Shunyata can never be a negative way of describing the Atman - Brahma of Hinduism as Vinoba Bhave and such scholars would have us believe. The meaning of Shunyata found in Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen or Mahamudra is the same as the Prasangika emptiness of Chandrakirti i.e. unfindability of any true existence or simply unfindability. Some writers of DzogChen and Mahamudra or Tantra think that the emptiness of Nagarjuna is different from the emptiness found in these systems. But I would like to ask them whether their emptiness is findable or unfindable; whether or not the significance of emptiness in these systems is also not the fact of unfindability."
(Also see: Rigpa and Aggregates by Daniel Ingram)
Loppon Namdrol:
There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."
Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.
Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.
Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:
I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers, the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination -- not ceasing, not arising not annihilated, not permanent, not going, not coming, not diverse, not single, was taught as peace in order to pacify proliferation.
Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom:
"The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity. It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates Nor as identical with these five aggregates. If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.
This is not the case, so were the second true, That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent. Therefore, based on the five aggregates, The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.
As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent. The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny."
Wonderful! Lappon Namdrol is my first Buddhist teacher. I debated with him for 3 years, me Hindu Shaivite and him Buddhist of all perspectives. He started winning when I started having experiences of what he was saying after various debates while I meditated on what he said, quoted, etc. Then I got transmission from his root guru, ChNNR who you have quoted above as well. That transmission blew away any remaining doubts!
When I say Lappon Namdrol started winning, I mean the truth that he was speaking upon started shining ever more brightly. I have met Lappon Namdrol in person, he is the real deal and is very nice, but serious at the same time.
Thank you for sharing from these two wonderful beings, and of course Padmasambhava and Nagarjuna as well. Also my teachers.
I don't mean to spoil the party, but is this "Lappon Namdrol" the same Namdrol as is on DharmaWheel, originally from e-sangha? What is a Lappon? I've never heard that term except in connection to him. Someone posted a teaching of his here last winter that was not well-received. He teaches that we're not to bother with ordinary day-to-day compassion, try to help people, be kind, and the like. We're to focus our effort exclusively on reaching Enlightenment. This is contrary to all teachings I've received in Tibetan Buddhism, which he says he's an advanced practitioner of. Maybe someone could shed light on this. I've been looking for someone who knows him, who might be able to provide info or a perspective on him.
My experience of him on DharmaWheel is that he's overbearing and rude, which can stifle discussion. Are we talking about the same person? This root guru, Namkhai Norbu R. sounds worth checking out, though.
"Loppon" means teacher in Tibetan. There's a lot of other lamas with the title, e.g. Loppon Jigme Rinpoche, Loppon Stering Samdup, Loppon Jigme Rinpoche, etc. Loppons are almost exclusively a title from the Sakya tradition. Loppon Namdrol is the same Namdrol from e-sangha.
And personally I think his advice is sound. We as a species have grown to be more and more selfish. Why not work with that selfishness to our advantage? Develop compassion for ourselves first. Once we can be truly compassionate to ourselves should we then start extending that compassion to others.
Thank you, dorje. So "Loppon" is the equivalent of "lama" or "guru", but in the Sakya tradition? I began in the Sakya tradition, but didn't hear that term.
According to a couple of related teachings of his that were posted here, he's not saying we should extend compassion to others. He said something to the effect that that is a waste of time. The Namdrol I know doesn't have the qualities I look for in a teacher: humility, kindness, right view. Walking the walk. But this is a digression. Back to topic.
Thank you, dorje. So "Loppon" is the equivalent of "lama" or "guru", but in the Sakya tradition? I began in the Sakya tradition, but didn't hear that term.
According to a couple of related teachings of his that were posted here, he's not saying we should extend compassion to others. He said something to the effect that that is a waste of time. The Namdrol I know doesn't have the qualities I look for in a teacher: humility, kindness, right view. Walking the walk. But this is a digression. Back to topic.
I know him, he was probably talking to someone in particular who is caught up in the outer show of compassion but doesn't have inner realization of compassionate nature. This then gets plastered around and people take it out of context and think other things about his intentions which have nothing to do with the original intention. This happens often enough, we've all experienced this in life.
He lives in Massachusetts and is sponsored by the Tibetan Sakyas to translate texts into English as part of a group of people who do this. He lives next to ChNNR's Gar in Conway, Mass. as that is his root Guru. Though he's received transmissions from endless Vajrayana and Dzogchen Masters, a list that I cannot compile. He's done the traditional 3 year, 3 month, 3 day retreat, is thoroughly versed in Tibetan both ancient and modern, has completed his training in Tibetan Medicine and is officially a Tibetan Doctor. He has received his title of Loppon from the Sakya lineage by undergoing the traditional study and practice regiment undergone for all Tibetans with the same title. He's stern and abrupt, doesn't beat around the bush and sometimes just say's a short blurp that people take wrong, but he's very busy, undergoing practice of various transmissions and doing his translation work, meanwhile he gives some time to answer questions quickly online and what people get from it is what they see out of it, either due to their own projections and reflections or insight and contemplation. He's a very nice man and offers his information freely. I've been on retreat with him in Conway Mass. before in about 2005. He knows the original Tibetan texts very well and is a trusted translator.
@Vajraheart Thanks for filling out the picture. Do you happen to know, was it the Indian Sakyas who gave him his title, or the Seattle Sakyas? Just curious. My first sangha experience was at Sakya Monastery in Seattle. The Sakya abbot and family were very impressive.
What was posted here that I mentioned before was from a text that a member in Hong Kong was hoping to get translated into Chinese. Some sort of collection of his teachings.
You're welcome. I'm not sure actually. He does mention Sakya's in BC, Canada, Seattle and India. I don't know where he did his retreat though either. At least I can't recall at this moment, even if I did know at some point.
Tibetan Medical college for Westerners? I've never heard of that. This is amazing. Haven't heard of the Sakya Institute, either. Thanks again!
Are you aware that it takes 20 years to thoroughly learn the Tibetan (ayurvedic) system of pulse-taking?
LOL! Yeah, I'm sure this is quite the watered down version, but still, it's a 4 year full immersion from, who I've met as well, the main teacher is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's own sister, very highly realized and a Tibetan Doctor from the old Tibetan traditions.
Namdrol is one of the downfall leaders of E-sangha. His style was autocratic, intellectually arrogant, certain, and quite dogmatic sometimes. That said, I think he is a nice guy generally with good intentions, but at the time it did not appear that his practice realisation/softness matched his intellectual gatherings - no matter how fine those were/are. A good intellectual reference source though I would assume - but horses for courses, and I do not know where he is at at the moment.
38. When eye and form assume their right relation, Appearances appear without a blur. Since these neither arise nor cease, They are the dharmadhatu, though they are imagined to be otherwise.
39. When sound and ear assume their right relation, A consciousness free of thought occurs. These three are in essence the dharmadhatu, free of other characteristics, But they become "hearing" when thought of conceptually.
40. Dependent upon the nose and an odor, one smells. And as with the example of form there is neither arising nor cessation, But in dependence upon the nose-consciousness’s experience, The dharmadhatu is thought to be smell.
41. The tongue’s nature is emptiness. The sphere of taste is voidness as well. These are in essence the dharmadhatu And are not the causes of the taste consciousness.
42. The pure body’s essence, The characteristics of the object touched, The tactile consciousness free of conditions— These are called the dharmadhatu.
43. The phenomena that appear to the mental consciousness, the chief of them all, Are conceptualized and then superimposed. When this activity is abandoned, phenomena’s lack of self-essence is known. Knowing this, meditate on the dharmadhatu.
44. And so is all that is seen or heard or smelled, Tasted, touched, and imagined, When yogis [and yoginis]* understand these in this manner, All their wonderful qualities are brought to consummation.
45. Perception’s doors in eyes and ears and nose, In tongue and body and the mental gate— All these six are utterly pure. These consciousnesses’ purity itself is suchness’ defining characteristic.
Namdrol is one of the downfall leaders of E-sangha. His style was autocratic, intellectually arrogant, certain, and quite dogmatic sometimes. That said, I think he is a nice guy generally with good intentions, but at the time it did not appear that his practice realisation/softness matched his intellectual gatherings - no matter how fine those were/are. A good intellectual reference source though I would assume - but horses for courses, and I do not know where he is at at the moment.
This describes him accurately to this day, judging by his behavior on Dharmawheel,and by what others have told me about him. I think V-heart probably got the VIP treatment from him, out of respect, because V-heart was probably a formidable debater, really knows his stuff, and eventually decamped from Shaivism to Buddhism, which displays an open mind and no qualms about switching horses in mid-stream and admitting the perceived superiority of another system.
Even on the intellectual front, Namdrol over-estimates his knowledge, not hesitating to tell people discussing topics he has no knowledge of that they're wrong. Until I read this thread, my impression was he had a universally bad reputation.
He gives advice from his knowledge and experience. And he gives it point blank. Many prefer to receive advice the way they like to receive crappy presents: wrapped and packaged in pretty appealing gift wrap with bows and ribbons and trimmings and flowers and the whole shebang. Namdrol isn't like that. He shoots from the hip. It may sound offensive initially but if you meditate on what he says, it hits the heart of the question.
Also, consider the fact that we can't read nuance and inflection on the internet.
i now understand why compassion and the heart is focused in mahayana buddhism. the wisdom teachings are much easier to access when the heart is light and open. also wisdom in it's natural function is all about the hearts awakening.
Thanks for the link to the video Vajraheart. I did not know the tibetan doctor Aku Nyima had been to the USA. I have had the privelge of visiting his monastery in Amdo.
He gives advice from his knowledge and experience. And he gives it point blank. Many prefer to receive advice the way they like to receive crappy presents: wrapped and packaged in pretty appealing gift wrap with bows and ribbons and trimmings and flowers and the whole shebang. Namdrol isn't like that. He shoots from the hip. It may sound offensive initially but if you meditate on what he says, it hits the heart of the question.
Also, consider the fact that we can't read nuance and inflection on the internet.
Yup, that's how I see it. He's a genuinely nice person with lots of light if you meet him in person.
Comments
of the fruit of enlightenment
is non-attainment of anything.
- Surangama Sutra
[Perfect enlightenment is non-attachment to everything, while functioning with perfect compassion and wisdom naturally for everyone, as it realises that nothing should be attached to, since nothing can be truly grasped on to, even enlightenment and non-attachment.]
I have not read through your full thread but one thought that came up was - why don't you study these things with a real master (as opposed to speculation such as the blind men and elephants parable..?)
The second is it reminded me of some articles written by a writer called "Bodhimind" at the time regarding Buddhism/Hinduism - which may (or may not) be of use
http://bodhimindinstitute.blogspot.com/2007/11/serpent-inclosing-water.html
There are many more articles on that site which you might find useful.
Well wishes,
Abu
You're absolutely right in that its time to get serious.
"(5) The first of the three topics is understanding the practice. "Understanding" (rtogs-pa) is not just reasoning (brtag-pa) and analyzing (dpyad-pa), but it relies upon transmission. Our view (lta-ba) is a way of seeing or looking at things and it may include analysis and explanation. But "understanding" is fundamentally an entering into a knowledge of that view experientially. When we have no concrete knowledge of this sort, we are dependent upon the descriptions and interpretations of others, and these may change from day to day. Without real knowledge, all phenomena (chos kun) are merely false images (bden-med gzugs-brnyan); they do not exist in a real sense, but are like so many reflections in a mirror. A kitten, not knowing the image in the mirror is his own reflection, pursues it as if it were a real playmate. In Dzogchen, all appearances (snang-ba) are understood to be the potency (rtsal) of the energy of the Bodhicitta or the primordial state. These appearances are the qualifications or ornaments of that state. When we enter into knowledge we have no doubt of this. Thus we may conclusively determine (kho-thag-chod) that appearances are a magical display of the mind (sems kyi cho-'phrul).
(6) The Nature of the Mind (sems-nyid) is from the very beginning void or empty (stong-pa) and without any self or concrete substance (bdag-med). But we should not think of mind as being a mere nothing (med-pa) because it has the clarity and limpidity of the mirror. This clarity (gsal-cha) exists unobstructedly and without interruption ('gags-med), just as the moon is reflected in the water in various ways. Thoughts arising in mind are the way in which the Nature of Mind manifests itself. But just as we must understand the reflections in order to understand the nature of the mirror, so we must examine thoughts to see where they arise, where they abide, and where they go. However, when we look into this matter, we discover that there is no place where thoughts arise or abide or go. Nothing can be affirmed and what we find is void or emptiness (stong-pa nyid). This is the real character of the mind. Now, even though this may be the case, thoughts (rnam-rtog) continue to arise without interruption ('gags-med). Therefore, what we find is a primal awareness of pure presence (rig-pa'i ye-shes) where there is no duality of emptiness (stong-pa nyid) on the one hand and clarity (gsal-ba) on the other. This primal awareness is natural and spontaneously self-perfected (rang-bzhin lhun-grub). At the level of mind (sems) we do not find this nonduality because mind operates in time, while the state of pure presence (rig-pa) lies beyond the limits of mind.
(7) When we recognize that appearances are mere ornaments of the real condition of existence (chos nyid rgyan), these appearances which arise to our alertly relaxed (lhug-pa) six senses are self-liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol) whenever they arise. The six sense aggregates (tshogs drug) are the five senses plus the mind (yid). The presence of appearances prior to forming any conception or judgment is called "clarity." Appearances (snang-ba) refer to the external world, whereas the passions or afflictions (non-mongs) and the karmic traces (bag-chags) refer to the world of inner experience. The manifestation of the internal state of pure presence is primal awareness (ye-shes). The arising of pure presence (rig-pa) never lacks in spontaneous self-perfection (lhun-grub), that is to say, its essential qualities, just as the rising sun does not lack its rays. Our passions only grow powerful because we are ignorant of the state of pure presence, and so consequently we follow after our passions. But when we find ourselves in the state of the pure presence of the passions, they do not dominate us nor do we have to suppress them because they are like the ornaments of our primordial state. Thus our passions are self-liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol) whenever they arise.
(8) Appearances and pure presence are inseparable (snang rig dbyer-med). When we recognize (ngos zin) this and find ourselves in this state, then the discursive thoughts arising which grasp at the duality (gnyis su 'dzin-pa'i rnam-rtog) of subject and object, are liberated into their own condition (rang sar grol). We do not try to block or reject them in any way, but we simply remain aware in the presence of their arising. There are three procedures for self-liberation in this case, depending upon the capacity of the practitioner: 1. self-liberation through bare attention (gcer grol), 2. self-liberation upon the arising of a thought (shar grol), and 3. self-liberation as such (rang grol). The term gcer means "bare or naked attention." But this is not yet real self-liberation because, in observing ourselves, we are still applying some degree of effort. For example, when a thought arises, we look it straight in the face and it liberates into its own condition. The term shar means "to arise." At the moment the thought arise, we do not have to make the effort to look it straight in the face, but just as it arises, we find ourselves in the state of presence which is Rig-pa and it self-liberates. True self-liberation (rang-grol) occurs when this capacity is fully developed. At this level, we have arrived at the continuity of the state of Rig-pa.
(9) This verse gives the essence of the matter. The awareness (shes-pa) arising at the first sudden instant (thol-'byung skad-cig dang-po) of sense contact is that pure presence (rig-pa) which is manifested without modification or correction (ma bcos) by the mind and which is not created or produced (skye-med) by any causes. What is this state of presence? It is a condition of existence (de-bzhin-nyid) transcending the limitations of both subject and object (gzung 'dzin mtha' las 'das-pa); it is a natural and authentic (gnyug-ma) self-originated primordial awareness of pure presence (rang-byung rig-pa'i ye-shes). The term de-bzhin-nyid indicates the state characterized by both primordial purity (ka-dag) and spontaneous self-perfection (lhun-grub)."
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/excerpts-from-cycle-of-day-and-night.html
The following recent post by Loppon Namdrol reminds me of Acharya Mahayogi Shridhar Rana Rinpoche, who said in his article Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta, "However, the Buddhist Ultimate Truth is the absence of any such satta i.e. ultimately existing thing or ultimate reality. That is the significance of Shunyata - absence of any real, independent, unchanging existence (Skt. svabhava). And that fact is the Ultimate Truth of Buddhism, which is diametrically opposite to the Ultimate Truth of the Hindu Brahma. So Shunyata can never be a negative way of describing the Atman - Brahma of Hinduism as Vinoba Bhave and such scholars would have us believe. The meaning of Shunyata found in Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen or Mahamudra is the same as the Prasangika emptiness of Chandrakirti i.e. unfindability of any true existence or simply unfindability. Some writers of DzogChen and Mahamudra or Tantra think that the emptiness of Nagarjuna is different from the emptiness found in these systems. But I would like to ask them whether their emptiness is findable or unfindable; whether or not the significance of emptiness in these systems is also not the fact of unfindability."
(Also see: Rigpa and Aggregates by Daniel Ingram)
Loppon Namdrol:
There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."
Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.
Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.
Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:
I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers,
the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination --
not ceasing, not arising
not annihilated, not permanent,
not going, not coming,
not diverse, not single,
was taught as peace
in order to pacify proliferation.
"The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity.
It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates
Nor as identical with these five aggregates.
If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.
This is not the case, so were the second true,
That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent.
Therefore, based on the five aggregates,
The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.
As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent.
The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny."
When I say Lappon Namdrol started winning, I mean the truth that he was speaking upon started shining ever more brightly. I have met Lappon Namdrol in person, he is the real deal and is very nice, but serious at the same time.
Thank you for sharing from these two wonderful beings, and of course Padmasambhava and Nagarjuna as well. Also my teachers.
Recommend any books? Hehehe
My experience of him on DharmaWheel is that he's overbearing and rude, which can stifle discussion. Are we talking about the same person? This root guru, Namkhai Norbu R. sounds worth checking out, though.
And personally I think his advice is sound. We as a species have grown to be more and more selfish. Why not work with that selfishness to our advantage? Develop compassion for ourselves first. Once we can be truly compassionate to ourselves should we then start extending that compassion to others.
According to a couple of related teachings of his that were posted here, he's not saying we should extend compassion to others. He said something to the effect that that is a waste of time. The Namdrol I know doesn't have the qualities I look for in a teacher: humility, kindness, right view. Walking the walk. But this is a digression. Back to topic.
He lives in Massachusetts and is sponsored by the Tibetan Sakyas to translate texts into English as part of a group of people who do this. He lives next to ChNNR's Gar in Conway, Mass. as that is his root Guru. Though he's received transmissions from endless Vajrayana and Dzogchen Masters, a list that I cannot compile. He's done the traditional 3 year, 3 month, 3 day retreat, is thoroughly versed in Tibetan both ancient and modern, has completed his training in Tibetan Medicine and is officially a Tibetan Doctor. He has received his title of Loppon from the Sakya lineage by undergoing the traditional study and practice regiment undergone for all Tibetans with the same title. He's stern and abrupt, doesn't beat around the bush and sometimes just say's a short blurp that people take wrong, but he's very busy, undergoing practice of various transmissions and doing his translation work, meanwhile he gives some time to answer questions quickly online and what people get from it is what they see out of it, either due to their own projections and reflections or insight and contemplation. He's a very nice man and offers his information freely. I've been on retreat with him in Conway Mass. before in about 2005. He knows the original Tibetan texts very well and is a trusted translator.
What was posted here that I mentioned before was from a text that a member in Hong Kong was hoping to get translated into Chinese. Some sort of collection of his teachings.
He studied Tibetan Medicine here...
That's him with the long blonde hair in the back of the graduating class.
He studied at the Sakya Institute, I think in Massachusetts as well?
Are you aware that it takes 20 years to thoroughly learn the Tibetan (ayurvedic) system of pulse-taking?
These are some of Namdrol's credentials. http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/User:Namdrol
Arya Nagarjuna:
38. When eye and form assume their right relation,
Appearances appear without a blur.
Since these neither arise nor cease,
They are the dharmadhatu, though they are imagined to be otherwise.
39. When sound and ear assume their right relation,
A consciousness free of thought occurs.
These three are in essence the dharmadhatu, free of other characteristics,
But they become "hearing" when thought of conceptually.
40. Dependent upon the nose and an odor, one smells.
And as with the example of form there is neither arising nor cessation,
But in dependence upon the nose-consciousness’s experience,
The dharmadhatu is thought to be smell.
41. The tongue’s nature is emptiness.
The sphere of taste is voidness as well.
These are in essence the dharmadhatu
And are not the causes of the taste consciousness.
42. The pure body’s essence,
The characteristics of the object touched,
The tactile consciousness free of conditions—
These are called the dharmadhatu.
43. The phenomena that appear to the mental consciousness, the chief of them all,
Are conceptualized and then superimposed.
When this activity is abandoned, phenomena’s lack of self-essence is known.
Knowing this, meditate on the dharmadhatu.
44. And so is all that is seen or heard or smelled,
Tasted, touched, and imagined,
When yogis [and yoginis]* understand these in this manner,
All their wonderful qualities are brought to consummation.
45. Perception’s doors in eyes and ears and nose,
In tongue and body and the mental gate—
All these six are utterly pure.
These consciousnesses’ purity itself is suchness’ defining characteristic.
Even on the intellectual front, Namdrol over-estimates his knowledge, not hesitating to tell people discussing topics he has no knowledge of that they're wrong. Until I read this thread, my impression was he had a universally bad reputation.
He gives advice from his knowledge and experience. And he gives it point blank. Many prefer to receive advice the way they like to receive crappy presents: wrapped and packaged in pretty appealing gift wrap with bows and ribbons and trimmings and flowers and the whole shebang. Namdrol isn't like that. He shoots from the hip. It may sound offensive initially but if you meditate on what he says, it hits the heart of the question.
Also, consider the fact that we can't read nuance and inflection on the internet.
"To share absolute truths
with those who need relative truths
is to confuse instead of help.
To share relative truths
with those who need absolute truths
is to belittle instead of enlighten.
- Stonepeace"
absolute truths to excuse immorality and
relative truths to excuse delusion.
Do use
absolute truths to foster wisdom and
relative truths to foster compassion.
-Stonepeace
Nice post, Jeffpeace.
the wisdom teachings are much easier to access when the heart is light and open.
also wisdom in it's natural function is all about the hearts awakening.
No problem. That is cool that you visited his monastery. What a privilege indeed!
@taiyaki
I agree, though that as well is not the whole of Buddhahood, but that is definitely the hub of the wheel in my opinion.