Devil's Advocate for the Terrorists (College Debate)

novaw0lf

I just played Devil's Advocate in philosophy class, and took the side of the Islamic terrorists...and won. Perhaps this could be food for thought for someone on this forum:

My argument was based upon a line in the Bible, actually:

"Every man does what he believes is right; the lord pondereth the hearts." -Proverbs 21:12

My professor was a bit surprised that I can quote a lot of The Bible by heart, even though I'm a Buddhist.

My argument then went to the possibility of forgiving the terrorists for their inhumanities. I said to my teacher, quote: "What country is bloodless in their history of war? They are terrorists only because we label them that, and though I will never agree with their actions toward my country and people, I understand that they are human, just like the Nazis of Germany. We've eradicated entire cities (Nagasaki, Hiroshima, etc), and leveled entire groups of people with our bombs, and we're labeled the heroes on our side of the battlefield because we have the resources and munitions available to set the standard for what is the greater good."

The winners of war write history, and though those "terrorists" may be on the opposite side of my battlefield, they are still my brothers in the cosmic sense in that all wars are civil because all men are brothers. And my brothers could never stray too far from forgiveness.

An idea inspired by Francois Fenelon.

My statement couldn't be disproven, but I could tell that I made many of the students uncomfortable. No one would dare say anything to me for having spent two years in the Middle East.

I had an officer tell me once, after I jumped from a building against orders in Bahrain to save Muslims (who ended up not being in the building, but that's not the point) that that's exactly the kind of "pussy hippie talk" that failed me in SEAL training.

...and I wound say in counter (that I couldn't at the time) that *his* thinking is exactly why we're stuck here fighting a war that we don't understand to begin with.

novaw0lf

Would you be able to forgive the terrorists?

(I just realized that from this post, people may mistakenly think that I'm a Navy SEAL. I am not. My military history is here: http://www.writerwolven.com/about.php)

taiyaki

the heart accepts all regardless.

the mind divides.

our fear, ignorance, aversion and greed force us to cling.

the heart accepts all.

novaw0lf

Thank you. ^^;

I'm just sorry to hear that so many have a hard time adopting this concept.

taiyaki

i think many get to this through just living life. in a way i find that the troubles and problems/solutions were the same problems/solutions that most people have and find.

the wisdom is found in experiencing life with honesty and sincerity. out of such clarity we open up to it.

we heal.

we heal a lot because we carry that shit everywhere. we allow our hearts to open to the sadness and the joy.

most people close off their hearts and minds because they don't want to feel the pain. most people are scared that the fear/pain will engulf them. so they shut down. they lose their humanity.

but what if we couragously looked at the fear, problems, anxiety, differences. what would we find?

personally i find space. the space to allow all of these things to manifest and then disappear. that space is the heart itself.

when i rest in that space there is a natural movement. such movement is the hearts movement. honoring both differences but seeing that we are in this together. suffering or not suffering. it is all felt in the open heart.

even the other is seen as overcome with their karmic struggles. thus if we look from the heart at the world, we feel the suffering as ours. out of such empathy we cannot help to be compassionate and filled with kindness. you know the one when you look at a kitten or a small child.

there is only the small child. we just fail to see it because we lost our innocence to the world. look carefully, it is still there.

zenff

The actions of terrorists are one thing. We can agree that they’re very harmful.
The person is something else.

We can try to look a little deeper.
When the terrorist is – let’s say – your son or your brother and you know how he got into this mess, you probably can forgive him. Love him even. And that doesn’t imply at all his actions are justified or anything.

Here’s a poem from Thich Nhat Hanh that I like:
http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/H/HanhThichNha/PleaseCallMe.htm

Simonthepilgrim

Perhaps the difficulty that some people experience is that, if they were to recognise their prejudice, they would have to accept that there is little to choose between voluntary terrorists and the armed services: both exist, under battle-field conditions, to kill.

Your terrorist is my freedom fighter. Take the decolonisation of the British Empire. Time and again, 'terrorist' leaders became revered statesmen: Jomo Kenyatta, Archbishop Makarios, Nelson Mandela, George Washington, among others.

To label my brother or sister a terrorist is to transform them in the 'other', dehumanise them and justify such state-endorsed crimes as the Maze Prison or Guantanamo Bay.

aura

It has been my experience that the majority of terrorists
are sponsored, trained, and paid for by those
seeking power over sheep, by offering to protect them from "those awful terrorists."
It's the oldest trick in the history books, the old feudal
"protection racket"
and people still fall for it every time.
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

Simonthepilgrim

It has been my experience that the majority of terrorists
are sponsored, trained, and paid for by those
seeking power over sheep, by offering to protect them from "those awful terrorists."
It's the oldest trick in the history books, the old feudal
"protection racket"
and people still fall for it every time.
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

Do governments sponsor, train and pay for the armed services?

What's the difference?

compassionate_warrior

@novaw0lf Where were you when we had threads on Osama after he was captured and killed? You should have seen those threads! Hitler was dragged into it, too, as I recall. Buddhists were really struggling with the compassion thing.

Simonthepilgrim

@novaw0lf Where were you when we had threads on Osama after he was captured and killed? You should have seen those threads! Hitler was dragged into it, too, as I recall. Buddhists were really struggling with the compassion thing.

I'm not sure what you mean that Buddhists found it difficult.

I certainly didn't, either as a Buddhist or as as a believer in due process: I was deeply saddened, and still am, that lynch law obtained vis a vis UBL or Gaddafi. The Western allies demonstrated, once again, that we are no better than those we went to war against.

prettyhowtown

I wish my husband could have met you while you were in the military (he's in the Navy as well). I think he would have liked you very much. He makes this same argument constantly, although he calls the force that divides us mere "circumstance".

compassionate_warrior

I'm not sure what you mean that Buddhists found it difficult.

I certainly didn't, either as a Buddhist or as as a believer in due process: I was deeply saddened, and still am, that lynch law obtained vis a vis UBL or Gaddafi. The Western allies demonstrated, once again, that we are no better than those we went to war against.

The membership was polarized on the issue.

novaw0lf

I wish my husband could have met you while you were in the military (he's in the Navy as well). I think he would have liked you very much. He makes this same argument constantly, although he calls the force that divides us mere "circumstance".

Yeah, I'd agree with that 110%. ^^;

I'm not sure what you mean that Buddhists found it difficult.

I certainly didn't, either as a Buddhist or as as a believer in due process: I was deeply saddened, and still am, that lynch law obtained vis a vis UBL or Gaddafi. The Western allies demonstrated, once again, that we are no better than those we went to war against.

Completely agreed, though you have to take into consideration the amount of Americans who cannot/have not adopted a more forgiving stance on such politics. There's more medieval-minded people in America who'd want vengeance than there are people who truly want equality, or who are willing to take the necessary steps to attain true peace. On the surface of its political machinery, America is a democratic republic, which means that the majority of the people's intent rules the country's actions.

After 9/11, my people wanted blood...and that's exactly what our government gave them.

novaw0lf

America has not evolved because its people have not evolved, and until we do, there will not be a true change in the way it handles its politics. This is why I became a writer; I have a dream that the moral challenges that I bring with the things that I write will open the minds of others and in some way, either big or small, contribute to ascension of not only American thought...but the world's.

novaw0lf

I'm just being realistic when I speak on behalf of the viewpoint of the American military (this is coming directly from personal experience): People like Buddhists, or those who know truer methods of attaining world peace are looked down upon as "pussy hippie"s with pinko communist views...something to be rejected under the opinion of the real animal of a capitalist country who denies its methods of non-flag-claiming imperialist philosophy (converting the governments of the countries that it unofficially invades into something identical of its own, then extorting the country of its trade without claiming it as an actual conquered territory), but welcomes Buddhists into its culture and military because of the technical wording of its constitution.

novaw0lf

My generation's America is nothing more than a modern-day Roman Empire, with only a smidgeon more of diplomatic finesse; it has shown no true intent to abolish the masochistic nature of its own brutalities.

federica

Buddhists were really struggling with the compassion thing.

'Some' maybe....not I...

compassionate_warrior

'Some' maybe...

Correct. I didn't mean to imply "all". (I thought I clarified that.) It was interesting to see where the chips fell, though. As I recall there were two related threads, with similar results on both.

My generation's America is nothing more than a modern-day Roman Empire, with only a smidgeon more of diplomatic finesse; it has shown no true intent to abolish the masochistic nature of its own brutalities.

If anything, it's getting more overt and in-your-face about what it does. Back in the old days, the CIA would secretly "off" heads of state it didn't agree with. Now everything is above board.