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Dzogchen Practice in Everyday Life

DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
edited November 2011 in Buddhism Basics
The everyday practice of Dzogchen in simply to develop a complete carefree acceptance, an openness to all situations without limit. We should realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation or strategy. We should experience everything totally. Never withdrawing into ourselves as a marmot hides in its hole. This practice releases tremendous energy which is usually constricted by the process of maintaining fixed reference points. Referentiality is the process by which we retreat from the direct experience of everyday life. Being present in the moment may initially trigger fear. But by welcoming the sensation of fear with complete openness, we cut through the barriers created by habitual emotional patterns. When we engage in the practice of discovering space, we should develop the feeling of opening ourselves out completely to the entire universe. We should open ourselves with absolute simplicity and nakedness of mind. This is the powerful and ordinary practice of dropping the mask of self-protection. We shouldn't make a division in our meditation between perception and field of perception. We shouldn't become like a cat watching a mouse. We should realize that the purpose of meditation is not to go 'deeply into ourselves' or withdraw from the world. Practice should be free and non-conceptual, unconstrained by introspection and concentration.

Vast unoriginated self-luminous wisdom space is the ground of being - the beginning and the end of confusion. The presence of awareness in the primordial state has no bias toward enlightenment or non-enlightenment. This ground of being which is known as pure or original Mind is the source from which all phenomena arise. It is known as the great mother, as the womb of potentiality in which all things arise and dissolve in natural self-perfectedness and absolute spontaneity. All aspects of phenomena are completely clear and lucid. The whole universe is open and unobstructed - everything is mutually interpenetrating. Seeing all things as naked, clear and free from obstructions, there is nothing to attain or realize. The nature of phenomena appears naturally and is naturally present in time-transcending awareness. Everything is naturally perfect just as it is. All phenomena appear in their uniqueness as part of the continually changing pattern. These patterns are vibrant with meaning and significance at every moment; yet there is no significance to attach to such meanings beyond the moment in which they present themselves. This is the dance of the five elements in which matter is a symbol of energy and energy a symbol of emptiness. We are a symbol of our own enlightenment.


http://www.dharmamind.net/teachings/DZOG.html

Comments

  • edited November 2011
    We should realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation or strategy.
    This is nice, but the beginning puts me off immediately. This often happens with the Tibetan teachings, or maybe this is the way all the schools teach, I wouldn't know. All the negativity they talk about, as if everyone goes around experiencing hate and jealousy, as if we're all knotted balls of anger. It leaves me wondering who their intended audience is, because in the West, in my experience at least, Buddhism attracts the nicest people. And now in this piece I find out that the teacher thinks it's the norm for people to relate to others artificially, manipulatively and strategically. That really creeps me out. That's not what my world is like.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    We should realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation or strategy.
    This is nice, but the beginning puts me off immediately. This often happens with the Tibetan teachings, or maybe this is the way all the schools teach, I wouldn't know. All the negativity they talk about, as if everyone goes around experiencing hate and jealousy, as if we're all knotted balls of anger. It leaves me wondering who their intended audience is, because in the West, in my experience at least, Buddhism attracts the nicest people. And now in this piece I find out that the teacher thinks it's the norm for people to relate to others artificially, manipulatively and strategically. That really creeps me out. That's not what my world is like.
    How funny! I am totally with you! For me... it has been Esoteric/Occult teachings, all of them seem to negate towards negativity, and maybe at times show some time of good light, but it is very rare, therefore, I started to realize that there is only a few real teachings out there that help me stay positive. Thanks for reading and commenting!:)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    compassionate_warrior, all buddhism teaches that we are by default poisoned. It is a contrast to western thought which says we are normal and *only* some have diseases.
  • edited November 2011
    all buddhism teaches that we are by default poisoned.
    Really?? Like being born a sinner? I've never heard anyone put it that way. I guess it explains a few things :scratch:

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    No you're born with anger, greed, and delusion. It's buddhism; there is no other teaching in buddhism. Actually one definition of a buddha is that they do not have the three poisons. But few people are born buddhas.

    Incidentally belief in Christianity doesn't preclude one from being a relatively enlightened being. 'Sin' points to a facet of reality. Of course I am not saying that there is a god punishing us, but 'sin' can point to someone who is acting unskillfuly or some other aspect of reality. Sin means 'miss', actually.
  • edited November 2011
    I understand. "Sin" means an unskillful act that has as its cause an erroneous view of reality.

    But how can a baby have anger and greed?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Take away a baby's bottle and see if it has anger and greed. A baby is just less complex so we see them more as primordially pure and innocent.

    Dzogchen is actually one of the few traditions that teaches primordial purity. So I think you have it backwords. Dzogchen says we are all buddhas haha. Which you have to have the Dzogchen view to understand. I don't and I don't understand.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Thank you everyone!:)
  • I thought about feeding issues with babies, and I wouldn't call that anger and greed. It's just instinct. Anger and greed are psychologically more sophisticated. Or maybe not.

    We all have buddhanature, that's nothing new. But it sounds like it's a particular focus in Dzogchen.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    In the buddhist teachings all sentient beings have anger and greed. This is the first noble truth here. The scope of anger and greed are not limited to adults etc.. Deer can be angry and greedy but you could also say that it is instinct. Indeed anger and greed are conditioned (which could be instinct) by those pali sanskrit (for anger/greed). Which is exactly what instinct is = conditioning.

    In buddhism there is no concept of 'emotions' defined as possibly positive or negative. There are categories of experience which are always positive or always negative or always neutral.
  • edited November 2011
    ?! :crazy: You're putting a whole new spin on the 1st Noble for me. All sentient beings. Even little newborn mice and baby giraffes and fetuses of any kind? Have anger and greed? :scratch: That's what "all beings experience suffering" means? I never thought about it that way. I have to say I don't agree that everyone experiences hate and jealousy, and that we all relate to each other manipulatively and aren't capable of being authentic without first realizing Buddhanature.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Yes all sentient beings have the three poisons. 'Anger' is a broad category and again you'd have to go to the sanskrit or pali. Your western associations with 'anger' don't correlate exactly.

    As you are more honest about your experience you notice the suffering, tanha (greed), ans..... well here is a link.
  • Babies do have "clinging", I can agree with that. "All sentient beings have the three poisons". I'm seeing this in a new light tonight. And it sounds a little too much like Christianity, though I know it's different, but still. I'll have to sit with this awhile.
  • "All Buddhist schools teach that through Tranquility (Samatha) meditation the kilesas are pacified, though not eradicated, and through Insight (Vipassana) the true nature of the kilesas and the mind itself is understood. When the empty nature of the Self and the Mind is fully understood, there is no longer a root for the disturbing emotions to be attached to, and the disturbing emotions lose their power to distract the mind."

    If a baby or deer practiced meditation and perceived the empty nature of the Self and Mind....

    only then could you say that baby or deer was not poisoned.
  • How can they enter life already poisoned? In fact, they're already poisoned in the womb. Why is that? Just because it's the nature of life, or the human condition?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    (If you believe in rebirth they are poisoned *long* before the womb. Samsara has no begining.)

    Because they have wrong view. Thus they think the milk is outside of them and they are getting it. So the baby has a sensation in its stomach and it thinks that sensation is 'it' that is inflicted on it that it doesn't want. Not on a conceptual level, but very deeply the baby acts as a 'self' that wants 'it' and doesn't want 'that'.

    Because if there is an 'it' that you want then there is a 'that' which you don't want.

    The baby has no ability to practice the dharma as a baby (well not much). A giraffe also has not very much ability to practice the dharma. As a consequence there is a disatisfaction that permeates their experience. It doesn't mean that we don't have rays of sunshine of genuine buddha nature we experience.

    Anger is a distortion of the buddha nature's clarity in seeing through obstacles for example.

  • We think that eating a candy bar is very pleasurable, but actually it is suffering because of tanha.
  • edited November 2011
    A fetus in the womb has wrong view? You're saying that the nature of life is dualistic because of the way we perceive phenomena. So we need to train the mind to see differently.

    But what it sounds like, from one perspective, is that we're all born "sinners" (wrong view-ers), and we have to follow the Buddha's path in order to free ourselves of "sin" (afflictive emotions and clinging, due to wrong view). A little too similar to Christianity, though with different words. You're shaking me up. But maybe they're similar because they're right, this is the nature of life.

    Leon, what do you make of this? I'm a little uncomfortable with this. I don't know why it's taken me by surprise, but it has. :hair: I'm fried. I have to go process this.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    I haven't heard 'dualistic' brought up too much. As I practice I look at my experience and see it. Thoughts are thoughts.

    We are not born buddhas, thus as a consequence to that we are not born with right view.

    We are not 'bad' because we lack wrong view. In fact we are *extra* worthy of compassion :)

    The difference from christianity is that buddha didn't create the world. He just perceived suffering, its cause, its impermanence, and a path to remove. And we didn't do something wrong to 'deserve' samsara. Its like you have muddy feet and make tracks on the carpet. God says you are 'bad' (ok thats a little slam on christianity,,, christianity is actually more sophisticated) for tracking mud. Buddhism says 'oh shit there is mud' 'take your shoes off to prevent more problems and we can see if we cannot find a mop'. Christianity says we are bad for tracking mud and must be forgiven. Before we clean it up.
  • edited November 2011
    What you described happening to the baby, wanting "it" (nourishment), and not wanting "that" (hunger), is a pretty good description of fundamental dualism. That's as basic as it gets.
  • Yeah.. also remember to take a grain of salt with these teachings. That is one reason why they are sometimes called provisional. You have to see how they are helpful.

    Buddhism is ancient. Ancient technology etc for example. No knowledge of biology. Even today the minds of people, their way of thinking differs from europe to america to asia to africa.

    So a middle ground between dismissing the teachings and paying lip service without questioning.
  • And the baby is not 'wrong' for wanting nourishment. Just that sensitivity (the buddha quality) is distorted into greed. With just sensitivity the baby wouldn't necessarily become upset. If the baby were not upset it might just make small sounds indicating hunger. Whereas a very upset baby would wail which doesn't make it a 'bad baby' it just means that baby is suffering more than the calm baby.
  • In buddhism its not a question of whether you have a right to be here or not. You are here already so the question of having a right to be here doesn't matter. In Christianity you first have to agree to work with God. Only then do you have a right to be here.
  • . In Christianity you first have to agree to work with God. Only then do you have a right to be here.
    What??! You don't have a right to be here if you don't agree to work with God? Who said that? What are they going to do, "cleanse" the planet of non-theists?

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Christianity says you are evil if you are not with God. And you are 'chaff' and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer for all eternity. According to many individual's interpretation of the Bible at least.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    edited November 2011
    I see many similarities between Christianity and Buddhism here.

    Christianity says in the beginning we lived in paradise (original mind) and then Adam took the bite of the apple from the tree of knowledge (between good & evil, etc - duality) and humanity was cast away from paradise (samsara). Since then, everyone has original sin (ignorance of God).

    Though Buddhism doesn't speak of a moment fell out of original enlightenment, you can interpret ignorance in a similar way as original sin. It doesn't say we're bad. It just means we're born confused.

    (Of course, the above is not mainstream Christian view, more like gnostic I think).

    I don't buy the "blank slate" theory with regards to babies. According to Buddhism, a baby is either a bodhisattva born out of a vow to manifest for the benefit of others, or a being born out of karma - another turn on the wheel.
  • Buddhism is about skillful and unskillful. Skillful leads to lesser suffering for everyone, whereas unskillful leads to more suffering for everyone.

    The goal is to uproot the three poisons so that we can see clearly into the nature of mind and reality, thus coming to insight and enlightenment.

    We are all born stupid. With a litlle knowledge and practice we can wise up and see whats really here.

    God in buddhism is irrelevant because whether or not god exists we still suffer. In buddhism causality replaces god.

    Food for thought.
  • edited November 2011

    I don't buy the "blank slate" theory with regards to babies. According to Buddhism, a baby is either a bodhisattva born out of a vow to manifest for the benefit of others, or a being born out of karma - another turn on the wheel.
    Right. The bodhisattva babies wouldn't be born with the 3 poisons.
    Christianity says you are evil if you are not with God. And you are 'chaff' and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer for all eternity. According to many individual's interpretation of the Bible at least.
    I've never heard this, and I had to gag down many years of Christian Sunday school. This sounds like it's about interpretation, not about what's really in the Bible. If someone provide a quote, I'll believe it.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    edited November 2011

    Right. The bodhisattva babies wouldn't be born with the 3 poisons.
    If they are not full Buddhas already, they will have some degree of 3 poisons, depending on what stage of bodhisattva they are. (someone else can elaborate on this perhaps)

    I've never heard this, and I had to gag down many years of Christian Sunday school. This sounds like it's about interpretation, not about what's really in the Bible. If someone provide a quote, I'll believe it.
    This is pretty much a mainstream Christian view. Of course how it squares with the Bible is another matter.
  • I think that because the Christian fundamentalism has been given a voice and a platform after GW Bush managed his father's campaign strategy and discovered the Christian Right in the process, the view of what is "mainstream Christian" has become distorted. The Christians I know don't think people who aren't with God are evil, and will go to a lake of fire. Fundamentalism used to be a fringe phenomenon. To what extent it still is or isn't, I don't know, but if it has become a dominant voice in the Christian community, this is something relatively new. And just because one wing of Christianity has managed to make a lot of noise (and even dominate Congress, at one point) doesn't mean it represents the majority of Christians.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    This is a subject for a big debate but I don't think it's relatively new. As far as I know this is standard Christian theology, whether Catholic or Protestant, and it's been around for a very very long time. I would think that the ones who have a different view are very much a minority.
  • 1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea


    2and saying, "Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."


    3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: `Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.'"


    4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leather girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.


    5Then there went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region round about the Jordan.


    6And they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.


    7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


    8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance,


    9and think not to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I say unto you that God is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


    10And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees; therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.


    11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.


    12His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


    13Then came Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John to be baptized by him.


    14But John forbad Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by Thee, and comest Thou to me?"


    15And Jesus answering said unto him, "Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." Then John suffered Him.


    16And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up straightway out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.


    17And lo, a voice came from Heaven, saying, "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED."
  • Passage Revelation 20:15:

    15And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21

    1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea.


    2And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    3And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.


    4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away."


    5And He that sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said unto me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."


    6And He said unto me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the Water of Life freely.


    7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


    8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


    9And there came unto me one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, "Come hither; I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."


    10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,


    11having the glory of God. And her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.


    12It had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


    13on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.


    14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


    15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof and the walls thereof.


    16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as great as the breadth; and he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs; the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.


    17And he measured the wall thereof: a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.


    18And the wall was built of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.


    19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,


    20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.


    21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each separate gate was of one pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were, transparent glass.


    22And I saw no temple therein, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


    23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it; for the glory of God gave it light, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


    24And the nations of them that are saved shall walk in the light of it, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.


    25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there,


    26and they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.


    27And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie, but only they that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2011
    I think there are a lot of quiet Christians around that we don't notice, who don't go around judging people like this. Didn't Jesus say not to judge people? There are also a lot of people who consider themselves Christians because they live in a Christian culture, but they never go to church or read the Bible. All the above (well,some of them) are the kind of Christians who consider evangelical Christians to be "holy rollers" and "Bible thumpers". Those quiet Christians don't get any media exposure, so we're not aware they exist, unless we know some. I live in New Mexico, a heavily Hispanic, and therefore Catholic, state. No one goes around talking like non-Christians are going to hell, or whatever. No one even discusses religion. It's a non-issue. But who knows, maybe they're secretly going around thinking nasty things about non-Catholics, or "heathens", etc. There are a lot of Buddhists in northern New Mexico, though, and none of them AFAIK has ever gotten flack from Christians. One's view of Christianity may depend on what part of the US one lives in. Are there these judgmental and evangelical types in other English-speaking countries? What about Europe in general? Is it appropriate to paint all Christians with the same brush, I wonder?

    According to Jimmy Carter, there has been a turn towards fundamentalism in US Christianity the last couple of decades, though. He and his wife left their church because it took a turn for the worse.

    re: Dzogchen--"the womb of potentiality in which all things arise and dissolve", that is the definition of Buddhanature, according to some authorities. Interesting that Dzogchen believes everything is perfect as it is, while here somehow we ended up discussing how Buddhism teaches that we're all born poisoned.
  • @Jeffrey I'm impressed you could pull that material up so handily, though I'm not sure what the point is of the first set. Are we all supposed to be baptized, or we're evil outcasts? As for the book of Revelation, my impression is that it's the extremist Christians who emphasize that one. Different denominations have their own view of the Bible, interpret the Bible differently from each other, and emphasize certain parts and ignore others. My mother considered herself a Christian, but none of us kids was baptized.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    "His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

    This sentence ties in with the revelation chapter. I am positive certain Christians interpret this way.. I was a reg for a year in a Christian chatroom. This doesn't mean that Christians *want* you to be burned up. At the same time that is what it says in *their* bible.

    The list goes on and on. God told people to rape the women they conquered, god destroyed a whole city because they were homosexuals etc...

    http://www.evilbible.com/July.htm#July 9
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2011
    eewwww... I remember now, it's because of all the violence and the image of God as wrathful that some Christians only go by the New Testament. Where Jesus introduces the idea of a "fluffy" God, as Tosh called him on another thread. Oh, and maybe it has something to do with the fact that some Christians consider the Old Testament to be the Hebrew Bible, so the New Testament is the Christian Bible, or something. Crazy stuff.

    I hope we're not scaring Leon. He was thinking about combining Christianity with Buddhism.
  • The Bible includes both testaments. Christians are all different just like buddhists. I call one group 'the go to hell christians'. I'm not against Christianity but I find that there is a lot of material that disgusts me. Most Christians are fine people and I see they get support from their religion.
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