Question on Mindfulness

misecmisc1

Hi All,

As per my understanding, mindfulness is just plain observation without any thought.

So my questions are:
1. Can a person become 100% mindful by living in current world, or even 50% mindful?
2. It is said that mindfulness leads to wisdom - but the question is if mindfulness is plain observation without any thought in mind, so just by seeing the things as they are - how can a person get wisdom, without thinking about it?

My questions can be too stupid to ask, but you all can consider me such a stupid to ask these things. If someone knows the answers to the above questions, please help. Thanks in advance.

federica

No, Mindfulness is not 'just observation without any thought'.
Almost the opposite.
mindfulness is remaining fully alert in the moment, and observing the skilfulness and usefulness of everything you think, say and do.
Mindfulness means being so vigilant, that not a moment goes by without you having evaluated the care, compassion and awareness invested in it, by you.

lamaramadingdong

Mindfulness is seeing reality as it truly is without adding our stories to it. For example, my daughters are notorious for using my things (camera, ipod, etc.) without my permission. The other day, I sat down at the computer and noticed that my USB cord for my camera was missing. I began to get steamed at my daughters and found myself thinking things like "poor me, they always do this, etc." I caught myself in the act of engaging in these thoughts (mindfulness), stopped thinking this way, and looked in my camera bag instead of going off on them. There it was.

AMH

those are NOT stupid questions btw, I hadn't really thought of it that wasy so it is helping me understand mindfullness better.

I think I started on mindfullness with advice to pay attention to how my body felt in many situations, find what emotions were there and what they were doing in my body but without evaluating or judging. That was a good step to notice and observe but to not judge and therefore stop that story that gets us all tangled up.

So it may be something like noticing that when I talk to this person I get a tension in my upper back and I feel weighted down heavily. I notice this for awhile and work on relaxing the tense areas and feeling lightness where there was heaviness. Typically I would have analyzed all this before paying attention to how it felt in my body, but by switching to being mindful of my body first I take out the story and can see with clearer eyes. The old story might have been 'I feel so sorry for them, I must help them, what can I do' and then run around 'fixing'. After being mindful of all my body sensations I may see something else 'I get very worried about my friend and her troubles, I feel weighted down by everything she struggles with, it won't help either of us if we are both weighted down, I am going to work on being calm and joyful around her, I can't change her life but I can do that'

Does that sound good? As always I never know if I am 'right' so if it fits then use it, but if it makes no sense leave it.

Zero

The act of being observant without thought is itself a constriction of mindfulness - its probably why it is called mindful rather than mindless!

Iamaramadingdong says it well - mindfulness is existing in each moment exactly as it is presented - this is in practice as far away from an empty mind as is possible...

In my mind there is either mindful or not - I cant say that I have perceived percentages...

The answer to your (1) is yes! This is the only world you live in so it is perfectly possible no matter what your background - in fact, living in this world as you describe it is probably better for your progress than removing yourself from it.

On your (2) - could you argue that this process you have gone through is gaining you wisdom? or opening up opportunities for you to increase your wisdom or connect with it or however youre comfortable expressing it? Either way, it would appear that you have gained something from the process even if you feel that you have not been 'mindful' in the way that you should have been... life is kind of like that - opportunities for growth are constant - it is up to you how you deal with them - one can argue therefore that by remaining mindful you have more opportunities to spot the opportunities!!!

misecmisc1

Hi All,
Thanks for your replies.

Whatever I have read about mindfulness, as per that, mindfulness is something before thought arises. Let me take an example, suppose we see a plain glass with water in it, the observation of this is mindfulness - then the mind starts to think about it like this structure is similar to glass and the thing which is filled in it is water because of the memory images of glass and water already present in our sub-conscious mind - then mind thinks and labels this as glass with water in it - next thoughts arise like is the water clean, who has kept this glass of water etc.

Mindfulness is before conceptualization. Conceptualization comes when we refer to things based on our perception which can be based on the knowledge we have gathered through our studies or through listening from others etc. So mindfulness cannot be explained by words as it is a step prior to formation of words in mind.

I do not say that whatever I have said is correct - i say i have read something about mindfulness then based on my understanding, i have understood this thing as i have explained above. May be my understanding is totally absurd and wrong and i am a perfect idiot to not being able to understand these things.

Now can somebody suggest if my understanding is totally wrong, somewhat wrong or correct and accordingly rectify me. After this is done, then i shall try to get the answers of my above questions.

Thanks all for helping.

federica

We are all right.

And so are you.

AMH

Yeah! we all win, :clap:

seeker242

Good video!

pegembara

Hi All,

As per my understanding, mindfulness is just plain observation without any thought.

So my questions are:
1. Can a person become 100% mindful by living in current world, or even 50% mindful?
2. It is said that mindfulness leads to wisdom - but the question is if mindfulness is plain observation without any thought in mind, so just by seeing the things as they are - how can a person get wisdom, without thinking about it?

My questions can be too stupid to ask, but you all can consider me such a stupid to ask these things. If someone knows the answers to the above questions, please help. Thanks in advance.

I prefer the term sati sampajanna, being aware of body[posture, actions etc] and mind[thoughts, emotions, mental states]. Thoughts come and go but there is awareness of that.

The wisdom that arise is the realization that we are not our thoughts, feelings, perceptions or even our body. That the 5 khandhas are not ours and they all arise and ceases.



"Thus he dwells perceiving again and again the mind as just the mind (not mine, not I, not self but just a phenomenon) in himself; or he dwells perceiving again and again the mind as just the mind in others; or he dwells perceiving again and again the mind as just the mind in both himself and in others. He dwells perceiving again and again the cause and the actual appearing of the mind; or he dwells perceiving again and again the cause and the actual dissolution of the mind; or he dwells perceiving again and again both the actual appearing and dissolution of the mind with their causes."

aMatt

So my questions are:
1. Can a person become 100% mindful by living in current world, or even 50% mindful?
2. It is said that mindfulness leads to wisdom - but the question is if mindfulness is plain observation without any thought in mind, so just by seeing the things as they are - how can a person get wisdom, without thinking about it?

The answer to 1 is well addressed in the other replies. For 2, it isn't as though no thoughts ever arise, there is just a different quality to them. I think your question of being mindful is best illustrated in the metaphor of a knot in a piece of rope. If we are unmindful, we pull and tug on the cords and only make the knot tighter. This is much like your observations of the automatic application of labels to everything and everyone we experience. That habitual reaction to phenomena is tightening to the mind, and disruptive to our observation.

However, if we are mindful of the conditions of the knot, alert enough to observe the truth of the conditions of the knot, and patient in our application of thought to the knot, then we can use our energy to untangle, loosen and simplify the twists and turns. We don't avoid describing a phenomena with a word or idea, we simply do not have to... we can experience it with only alertness.

The reason wisdom seems to arise from mindfulness isn't because it is spontaneous, but because the mind is infinitely adaptive to work skillfully with what tools are available to us to help the items that are presented. Each knot may be different, but they are all held together by the same forces... Buddha described it as Upādāna or "clinging"/"grasping". So, once we understand the fundamental qualities that drive each person's reality forward, mindfulness allows us to observe clearly the uniqueness to the tangles.

With warmth,

Matt

driedleaf

Mindfulness in everyday life is basic awareness and realizing the present moment. Mindfulness through virtues, wholesome acts, and cleansing the mind is a much higher awareness and increases wisdom.

misecmisc1

Hi All,
Now i am totally confused on mindfulness. some say it is just observing prior to any labeling in the mind, so there is nothing good and nothing bad, rather just plain awareness of observation - some say as in the above attached video and also commented by some in above posts that mindfulness is being aware of your thoughts coming to mind, but this thing comes much later as it is after labeling of objects in mind, then classifying them as good and bad - some say that mindfulness is remembering what scriptures say as good and bad, then classify your thoughts as good and bad, then stop your bad thought and replace it with good thought.

So if somebody says all the above are mindfulness, then i am sorry to say that it seems nobody knows what mindfulness is exactly and the definition seems to be customized as per one's understanding. If anybody knows what mindfulness is as per Gautam Buddha, can somebody quote some link referring to it as it shall be helpful.

Moreover, if there is some source which somebody is knowing, which clearly defines mindfulness, then please let me know. Thanks in advance.

driedleaf

The word can be translated in many ways. Mindfulness as it relates to Buddhism the way I understand it is described here.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html

driedleaf

sati: Mindfulness, self-collectedness, powers of reference and retention. In some contexts, the word sati when used alone covers alertness

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sati/index.html

misecmisc1

Hi All,

Mindfulness on breath means awareness of breath - so can a person be 100% mindful in current world? - the reason i am asking this is we have to think about various things in our day-to-day life, during those thought processes the attention is captured by thoughts so mindfulness on breath is gone, then when we try to put into action our thoughts then again mindfulness is gone.

Moreover, if we agree on the definition of mindfulness to be aware of the present, then also just observing mindfulness and observing things without thinking about it, then how does it lead to wisdom and finally liberation?

Please suggest.

seeker242

Hi All,

Mindfulness on breath means awareness of breath - so can a person be 100% mindful in current world? - the reason i am asking this is we have to think about various things in our day-to-day life, during those thought processes the attention is captured by thoughts so mindfulness on breath is gone

Yes a person can be 100% mindful in the current world because mindfulness does not just mean awareness of breath or body but also mindfulness of feelings, mind and mental objects. Stop thinking that mindfulness is "no thinking" because that is not correct!

For example, if you are thinking, you are aware that your mind is thinking and you are aware of the nature of the thoughts and whether or not they are wholesome or unwholesome, etc.

>Moreover, if we agree on the definition of mindfulness to be aware of the present

We don't agree on that because that is not correct.

""And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? "Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'

""And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling.' When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen.

seeker242

The definition (the four frames of reference)

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."

— DN 22

"One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness..."

— MN 117

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sati/index.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-b

It leads to liberation because it allows you to be aware of wrong view, wrong speech, wrong action, etc and to abandon them. If you are not even aware that you are engaged in wrong action, then it pretty difficult, if not impossible, to abandon it.

driedleaf

The proper objects that act as frames of reference are four: the body in and of itself, feelings in and of themselves, the mind in and of itself, and mental qualities in and of themselves. The "in and of itself" here is important. To take the body as a frame of reference in this way, for instance, means that one views it not in terms of its function in the world — for then the world would be the frame of reference — but simply on its own terms, as it is directly experienced. In other words, one is not concerned with its relative worth or utility in terms of the values of the world — its beauty, strength, agility, etc. — but simply how it appears when regarded in and of itself.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-b

newtech

Hi:

Yes, the word mindfulness becomes very fuzzy sometimes.
The easiest way to see it it is that it has the "mind" and the "ness" putted together haha .

Mindfulness: Remembering to observe where your mind is all the time for the purpouse of understanding how things work.

U can take mn 118 (mindfulness of breathing):

Your mind its on the breath (just discerning the breath-your are being mindfull of the breath - you know your mind its there).

Your mind slips away to something else. And u notice maybe 2 seconds later, 10 seconds, 1 minute later that you are gone. What happend in the gap?. Because mindfulness was not developed, u could´t see where mind was in that time.

What actually happend was contact arose, then the feeling, then the craving (minds dissatisfaction), then the clinging (mind thoughts). And later on u "wake up" and find yourself in the hindrance.

When mindfulness is developed, steady and without lapse you can see that. And when u see that u understand how things work.

The buddha also add the "being sensitive to the entire physical body" and the "calming the bodily formation" steps because in this way u can let go of the craving and the clinging so this process becomes more clear.

Hope it helps .

ajnast4r

i'm not sure if i have a good technical understanding of what mindfulness is from a Buddhist perspective... So I can only offer my limited understanding.

My understanding of mindfulness is that it is the faculty of applied concentration in the present moment. concentration (ultimately) is the ability to keep the mind still & fixed on a single object or occurrence in the present moment, mindfulness is what actually keeps the mind fixed and catches & comprehends clearly the 'intrusions'. When you are washing the dishes, you are washing the dishes. Taking the experience as it is without coloring it with commentary, emotion, wandering off into the future or the past.

it really is a broad term... the experience of mindfulness in say, having a conversation is different than the experience of mindfulness when concentration is refined in meditation. mindfulness i think is much more difficult to explain than it is to experience.

you might find these helpful.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/mindfulnessdefined.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/concmind.html

Jason

As per my understanding, mindfulness is just plain observation without any thought.

As a technically term, sati, the Pali word that's translated as 'mindfulness,' means to keep something in mind, so there's an element of intention, as well as thought, involved.

So my questions are:
1. Can a person become 100% mindful by living in current world, or even 50% mindful?

I can't say for sure, but with practice, one can certainly increase their levels of mindfulness to the point where less and less effort is needed to keep the object(s) of mindfulness to the fore of attention. It's not inconceivable that one could become extremely mindful in their waking, day-to-day life to the extent that it seems they're mindful most, if not all, of the time.

2. It is said that mindfulness leads to wisdom - but the question is if mindfulness is plain observation without any thought in mind, so just by seeing the things as they are - how can a person get wisdom, without thinking about it?

Mindfulness can certainly help lead to the development of wisdom or insight (panna), but it's usually not sufficient on its own. The mind generally requires the help of other mental factors in addition to mindfulness to penetrate phenomena at a deep enough level to give rise to discernment (another translation of panna), which essentially means seeing things as they are in relation to the three characteristics of existence (tilakkhana) — unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), inconstancy (anicca), and not-self (anatta) — and understanding with profound clarity the deceptively simply doctrine of dependent co-arising (paticca-samuppada).

In addition, it should be noted that DN 33 lists various types and categories of knowledge, including three different kinds differentiated by the conditions for their arising, i.e., knowledge based on thinking (cinta-maya-panna), knowledge based on learning (suta-maya-panna), and knowledge based on mental development (bhavana-maya-panna). From the Visuddhimagga:

'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration.

Spaceless

It is right that mindfulness is before thought arises, and what it arises is metta bliss :cool:

Jeffrey

Mindful also means to see conditionality. And simultaneously keep the dharma in mind. The three things of a dharmic teaching are change, dukkha, and anatta... However it is not just random change. Your computer won't suddenly turn into a scorpion and then the walls rain blood :hair: There are patterns and conditionality and mindfulness is awarness seeing into this conditionality. The patterns could be the weather report, the laws of physics, the four food groups, nature, company policy, and so forth. But the dharma is also taken into mindfulness.

Spaceless

if mindfulness is conditionality, it develops dharmic conditional which can't develop true bliss. true bliss maintains a constant flow of no random thoughts.

Jeffrey

see conditionality. If you don't see the conditionality they appear random..

Spaceless

see conditionality. If you don't see the conditionality they appear random..

Haaa kind of lovely enlightening for being drawn a stroke beneath

misecmisc1

@jason: thanks for your reply.

So just to clarify - again asking what is mindfulness - knowing what is going on in our mind and then analyzing it whether it is morally good or bad - or - plain awareness of what is going in mind, without doing any analysis of it by thinking about it. If it is knowing what is going on in our mind, then most of the people should be mindful naturally - then why Buddha emphasized on mindfulness. So it seems to me the second option of plain awareness seems more apt to what is mindfulness. This is my view so it can be totally wrong. Please help me to understand it correctly.

Hi All,
Please suggest.

SpinyNorman2

2. It is said that mindfulness leads to wisdom - but the question is if mindfulness is plain observation without any thought in mind, so just by seeing the things as they are - how can a person get wisdom, without thinking about it?

If you're really paying attention then you see directly what is happening.

Spiny