Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Kalama Sutra Discussion
buddhafoot
Veteran
Kalama Sutra Discussion
As I said, I thought I get some threads going discussing various
sutras. Maybe help all of us see deeper meanings in various
teachings we may not know about or do not know in detail.
We'll begin with the Kalama Sutra
Kalama Sutra
The Instruction to the Kalamas
Translated from the Pali by Soma Thera
The Kalamas of Kesaputta Go to See the Buddha
1. I heard thus. Once the Blessed One, while wandering in the Kosala country with a large community of Bhikkhus, entered a town of the Kalama people called Kesaputta. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta: "Reverend Gautama, the monk, the son of the Sakyans, has, while wandering in the Kosala country, entered Kesaputta. The good repute of the Reverend Gautama has been spread in this way: Indeed, the Blessed One is thus consummate, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and practice, sublime, knower of the worlds, peerless, guide of tamable men, teacher of divine and human beings, which he by himself has through direct knowledge understood clearly. He set forth the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, possessed of meaning and the letter, and complete in everything; and he proclaims the holy life that is perfectly pure. Seeing such consummate ones is good indeed."
2. Then the Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta went to where the Blessed One was. On arriving there some paid homage to him and sat down on one side; some exchanged greetings with him and after the ending of cordial memorable talk, sat down on one side; some saluted him raising their joined palms and sat down on one side; some announced their name and family and sat down on one side; some without speaking, sat down on one side.
The Kalamas of Kesaputta Ask for Guidance From the Buddha
3. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta sitting on one side said to the Blessed One: "There are some monks and Brahmins, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and Brahmins too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt; there is uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and Brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood?"
The Criterion for Rejection
4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.
Greed, Hate, and Delusion
5. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to greed, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by greed, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
6. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does hate appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to hate, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by hate, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
7. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to delusion, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by delusion, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
8. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" -- "Bad, venerable sir" -- "Blamable or not blamable?" -- "Blamable, venerable sir." -- "Censured or praised by the wise?" -- "Censured, venerable sir." -- "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to harm and ill, or not? Or how does it strike you?" -- "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill. Thus it strikes us here."
9. "Therefore, did we say, Kalamas, what was said thus, 'Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill," abandon them.'
The Criterion for Acceptance
10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.
Absence of Greed, Hate, and Delusion
11. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to greed, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by greed, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
12. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of hate appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to hate, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by hate, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
13. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to delusion, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by delusion, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
14. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" -- "Good, venerable sir." -- "Blamable or not blamable?" -- "Not blamable, venerable sir." -- "Censured or praised by the wise?" -- "Praised, venerable sir." -- "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to benefit and happiness, or not? Or how does it strike you?" -- "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness. Thus it strikes us here."
15. "Therefore, did we say, Kalamas, what was said thus, 'Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'
The Four Exalted Dwellings
16. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, un-deluded, clearly comprehending and mindful, dwells, having pervaded, with the thought of amity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of amity that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of compassion, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of compassion that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of gladness, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of gladness that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of equanimity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of equanimity that is free of hate or malice.
The Four Solaces
17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."
"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.
"Marvelous, venerable sir! Marvelous, venerable sir! As if, venerable sir, a person were to turn face upwards what is upside down, or to uncover the concealed, or to point the way to one who is lost or to carry a lamp in the darkness, thinking, 'Those who have eyes will see visible objects,' so has the Dhamma been set forth in many ways by the Blessed One. We, venerable sir, go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma for refuge, and to the Community of Bhikkhus for refuge. Venerable sir, may the Blessed One regard us as lay followers who have gone for refuge for life, from today."
As I said, I thought I get some threads going discussing various
sutras. Maybe help all of us see deeper meanings in various
teachings we may not know about or do not know in detail.
We'll begin with the Kalama Sutra
Kalama Sutra
The Instruction to the Kalamas
Translated from the Pali by Soma Thera
The Kalamas of Kesaputta Go to See the Buddha
1. I heard thus. Once the Blessed One, while wandering in the Kosala country with a large community of Bhikkhus, entered a town of the Kalama people called Kesaputta. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta: "Reverend Gautama, the monk, the son of the Sakyans, has, while wandering in the Kosala country, entered Kesaputta. The good repute of the Reverend Gautama has been spread in this way: Indeed, the Blessed One is thus consummate, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and practice, sublime, knower of the worlds, peerless, guide of tamable men, teacher of divine and human beings, which he by himself has through direct knowledge understood clearly. He set forth the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, possessed of meaning and the letter, and complete in everything; and he proclaims the holy life that is perfectly pure. Seeing such consummate ones is good indeed."
2. Then the Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta went to where the Blessed One was. On arriving there some paid homage to him and sat down on one side; some exchanged greetings with him and after the ending of cordial memorable talk, sat down on one side; some saluted him raising their joined palms and sat down on one side; some announced their name and family and sat down on one side; some without speaking, sat down on one side.
The Kalamas of Kesaputta Ask for Guidance From the Buddha
3. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta sitting on one side said to the Blessed One: "There are some monks and Brahmins, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and Brahmins too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt; there is uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and Brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood?"
The Criterion for Rejection
4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.
Greed, Hate, and Delusion
5. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to greed, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by greed, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
6. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does hate appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to hate, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by hate, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
7. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his harm, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being given to delusion, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by delusion, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
8. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" -- "Bad, venerable sir" -- "Blamable or not blamable?" -- "Blamable, venerable sir." -- "Censured or praised by the wise?" -- "Censured, venerable sir." -- "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to harm and ill, or not? Or how does it strike you?" -- "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill. Thus it strikes us here."
9. "Therefore, did we say, Kalamas, what was said thus, 'Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill," abandon them.'
The Criterion for Acceptance
10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.
Absence of Greed, Hate, and Delusion
11. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to greed, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by greed, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
12. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of hate appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to hate, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by hate, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
13. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does absence of delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" -- "For his benefit, venerable sir." -- "Kalamas, being not given to delusion, and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by delusion, this man does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his benefit and happiness?" -- "Yes, venerable sir."
14. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" -- "Good, venerable sir." -- "Blamable or not blamable?" -- "Not blamable, venerable sir." -- "Censured or praised by the wise?" -- "Praised, venerable sir." -- "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to benefit and happiness, or not? Or how does it strike you?" -- "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness. Thus it strikes us here."
15. "Therefore, did we say, Kalamas, what was said thus, 'Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'
The Four Exalted Dwellings
16. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, un-deluded, clearly comprehending and mindful, dwells, having pervaded, with the thought of amity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of amity that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of compassion, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of compassion that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of gladness, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of gladness that is free of hate or malice.
"He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of equanimity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of equanimity that is free of hate or malice.
The Four Solaces
17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."
"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.
"Marvelous, venerable sir! Marvelous, venerable sir! As if, venerable sir, a person were to turn face upwards what is upside down, or to uncover the concealed, or to point the way to one who is lost or to carry a lamp in the darkness, thinking, 'Those who have eyes will see visible objects,' so has the Dhamma been set forth in many ways by the Blessed One. We, venerable sir, go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma for refuge, and to the Community of Bhikkhus for refuge. Venerable sir, may the Blessed One regard us as lay followers who have gone for refuge for life, from today."
0
Comments
It seems that this area really hits home about the confusion or concern regarding an "afterlife" or not.
To me, this spoke very clearly today about how to view the worry of a possible "after-life" and the life we have here right before us.
-bf
So, in Buddhist terms, play it safe, and act, speak & think as if there is rebirth and you will lose nothing and possibly gain a great deal. Of course Buddha's arguments & presence were so impressive that the Kalamas took refuge and accepted his arguments for karma & rebirth.
Would that more modern folk could do the same.
I thought it might be a good idea to introduce and discuss the actual suttas along with all of our book discussions. Might give some of us who haven't ever broken down the suttas some knowledge along with our more sagacious members.
-bf
This is a really excellent idea!!! It also gives us a resource we can come back to again and again that has the sutras all collected in one place. (Well, not ALL, but some...)
All I want to say about the Kalama Sutra is that it appeals to me in it's thoroughness. It's about covering all the bases, even if we can't prove ourselves that all the bases exist. Like erring on the side of caution. This has always felt to me like the reasonable way to go about things.
I take the same approach, in a round about way, with my computer. I've never stored anything on my computer of a sensitive nature and I have nothing on it that can't be lost or replaced. I could have a complete computer meltdown tomorrow, lose everything and not shed a tear or lose a moment of my life to anger. All the bases are covered.
I'm doing the same with my family so I can leave with no regrets when the time comes.
But I love this sutra for the same reasons everyone else loves it; it makes us, ourselves, the ultimate authority over what we accept as truth. I really love this one.
Thanks, BF. This is a great idea!!
Brigid
"What does this do to me? What effect does it have? Does it enhance or detract?"
I have to say - though I may not understand everything in Buddhism, that I have come across, as far as I am concerned, in its pure unadulterated form or transmission, (which has often been through people who simply know better than I) I have not been disappointed... Buddhism for me has not been found wanting.
Some 'Buddhists', I cannot say the same for.... But labelling them as such merely serves to detract from that which they purportedly follow, and disengagres them from what they chiefly are.... sentient Beings. And as such, though I may not agree with them or see eye to eye, or even understand a short fat carrot's worth of what they're saying....
I still have learnt something.....
It shows a great example of Right View, the mind and the various states of mind and it's interaction with our Buddha-nature. It also shows a great example of reviewing our "current state of mind" to see how it supports or negates the teachings of Buddha.
-bf
Yes and no regarding ourselves as the "ultimate authority". In the sense that we think of ourselves as separate from all influences and our mind being the first & last filter for thought -yes. On the other hand our thoughts are always conditioned by our past, present events, society and other thinkers we respect or abhor - no.
This sutta is really targetted at non-Buddhists. For those who have taken refuge, our confidence in the Dharma is, (or should be) great enough to accept much on faith, until we are able to confirm it for ourselves, eventually. But even non-Buddhists like the Kalamas were given two criteria in addition to one's own views.
One is respect for the views of the wise - do they praise or censure something. Secondly; does this action, thought or speech lead to sorrow or happiness?
Both these additional criteria slow down the emotional, quick reaction we might have. We have to think about how this action would effect others, as well as ourselves. What would happen to society if everyone did or did not do this? We also have to ponder what is "wisdom" and can we recognize it in others. If we do see it, do we respect and admire it, even if it does not fit with our views?
So yes it is an important sutta, but it is not the charter for a purely individual, isolated view of life.
But I think there is a "given" that is being missed by what Brigid posted.
I believe it is a "given" that Brigid IS taking refuge in the Dharma.
To use this sutra as the end all be all is just like following the image or the thought of Buddha without implementing the teachings of Buddha into one's life.
I think it would go hand in hand that to use the Kalama Sutra - one would also be incorporating the other teachings of Buddha.
And - even at the very least - the last criteria is:
To "use" the Kalama Sutra for one's own personal gain will never work. The wisdom of this teaching is knowing (not imagining) that these things are good, not blamable, praised by the wise, lead to benefit and happiness - abide in these things.
-bf
If I weren't taking refuge, however, I believe the Kalama Sutra still makes us, ourselves, the ultimate authority over what we accept as truth.
The Kalamas were confused by hearing various
The Buddha then teaches them the criteria for rejection:
He's telling them that when they themselves know these things are bad through experiential understanding ("undertaken and observed") and are also "censured by the wise" they should abandon them. And the same goes for abiding in the good.
I don't think the Buddha was saying that one's own views should be a criterion for accepting or rejecting what they are being told by these various "monks and Brahmins" which is why he goes on to talk about Greed, Hate and Delusion and whether their presence or absence is blamable or non blamable. He is telling them that these three things, which we all agree are blamable should not be present in a wise man.
He then talks about The Four Exalted Dwellings , the criteria that should be present in a wise one.
"...boundless thought of compassion that is free of hate or malice.
" boundless thought of gladness that is free of hate or malice.
" boundless thought of equanimity that is free of hate or malice.
The Buddha gives the Kalamas the criteria by which they can judge who is wise and who is not. Their original question was "Which of these reverend monks and Brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood?" They wanted the Buddha to name names and tell them who to listen to and believe. But instead he teaches them how to discern for themselves who is worthy of their attention.
Through The Four Solaces the Buddha is saying "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now." He is saying that no matter what circumstance a disciple of the Noble Ones such as this finds himself in, he will have solace.
My interpretation is that with proper guidance and experiential understanding, it is we, ourselves who are the ultimate authority over what we should accept as truth and that this acceptance needs to be constantly reviewed. This guidance is essential and I don't see this sutra to be a "charter for a purely individual, isolated view of life." at all. We have to be guided, either by the wise or by the Dharma in order to be able to discern for ourselves. But it is ourselves, at the end of the day, who are making the choices.
Brigid
Yes, I agree.
And I think once we get into The Dhammapada - we will see what Buddha taught us about the mind and many other things.
But, out of everything that you said - I think you summed it up nicely - ie. proper guidance..
Which is why I thought I'd start tackling some sutras!
-bf
Yes, I agree B.
But many do, in fact, think of this sutta as a "charter for free inquiry" based only on our opinion, because many have a real hang-up about "authority".
So I was just fleshing out an implication in the statement, not criticising you.
If I can find it later, I will post sutta passages where Buddha mentions the importance of a guru, faith and devotion.
I figured that's what you were saying. Thought I might as well use the excuse to clean up my earlier post a bit and look at the sutra a little closer. People who have problems with authority should have just as much problem with opinion, shouldn't they? LOL!
BF,
Can't wait until we get into The Dhammapada.
And since we do have some proper guidance here, tackling some of the sutras is an excellent idea. Smart man you are! Sutras for us beginners with proper guidance form those who have already studied them. I'm soooo into this!
Love
Brigid
========================
There are five ideas that ripen here and now in two ways. What five? Faith, preference, hearsay-learning, arguing upon evidence, and liking through pondering a view. Now something may have faith well placed in it and yet be hollow, empty, and false; and again something may have no faith placed in it and yet be factual, true, and no other than it seems; and so with preference and the rest. If a man has faith, then he guards truth when he says, "My faith is thus," but on that account draws no unreserved conclusion, "Only this is true, the other is wrong." In this way he guards the truth; but there is as yet no discovery of truth. And so with preference and the rest.
How is truth discovered? Here a bhikkhu lives near some village or town. Then a householder or his son goes to him in order to test him in three kinds of ideas, in ideas provocative of greed, of hate, and of delusion, wondering, "Are there in this venerable one any such ideas, whereby his mind being obsessed he might not knowing, say 'I know,' unseeing, say 'I see,' or to get others to do likewise, which would be long for their harm and suffering?" While thus testing him he comes to find that there are no such ideas in him, and he finds that, "The bodily and verbal behavior of that venerable one are not those of one affected by lust or hate or delusion. But the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and discover; yet it is the most peaceful and superior of all, out of reach of logical ratiocination, subtle, for the wise to experience; such a Dhamma cannot be taught by one affected by lust or hate or delusion."
It is as soon as by testing him, he comes to see that he is purified from ideas provocative of lust, hate, and delusion, that he then plants his faith in him. When he visits him he respects him, when he respects him he gives ear, one who gives ear hears the Dhamma, he remembers it, he investigates the meaning of the ideas remembered. When he does that he acquires a preference by pondering the ideas. That produces interest. One interested is actively committed. So committed he makes a judgment. According to his judgment he exerts himself. When he exerts himself he comes to realize with the body the ultimate truth, and he sees it by the penetrating of it with understanding. That is how there is discovery of truth. But there is as yet no final arrival at truth. How is truth finally arrived at? Final arrival at truth is the repetition, the keeping in being, the development, of those same ideas. That is how there is final arrival at truth.
Does "with the body" mean through experience? What's another way of saying "and he sees it by the penetrating of it with understanding"?
And then it has to be like scientific method; it has to be repeatable.
I feel like my brain is overcomplicating something simple. I want to be able to paraphrase this in a way that I can easily understand it.
Also, Will, can you tell me, just generally, what the context was for this sutra? Who and why? And how do you pronounce "Canki"?
This is going to be my most favourite thread on this whole board.
Thanks, Will.
Brigid
"With the body.." - not sure, will have to check when I get back home (work most Sats.)
I would guess it either means 1) "within the body", one does not have to leave the flesh after death to realize or 2) "with the body focused meditations" on breath etc.
The beginning of the sutta (google gives several translations at several sites) gives the context. A bright, young, uppity brahmin starts pontificating and Buddha helps him clarify his notions on truth-finding, sacred writings, lineage authorityetc.
Pronunciation - sorry, I am clueless. But Access to Insight probably has a guide for that.
Genryu,
Thank you. Yes, you've said that before. I only vaguely understand, though. Is it anything like forcing yourself to smile when you're in physical pain which lessens the pain? I do this because grimacing makes the pain feel worse and smiling instantly makes the pain lessen. I think it's because my body is telling my brain how to make my body feel. See? I'm a little confused.
I know it has to do with the physical act of sitting; the posture and breathing. And I know how the intellect gets in the way. Is it something like the body going through the motions mindfully and the mind following?
Will,
Thanks for the context. That helps a lot. Pronunciation is becoming a bit of an obsession for me. I just received The Pema Chodron Collection which is a set of three CD's of her talks and I was immediately struck by how differently some names are pronounced from how I imagined them to be. The second thing that struck me is that I could listen to her talk for weeks. She absolutely rocks! LOL! I understand everything and it feels like she's talking just to me even though the one I listened to last night was a talk she gave for an audience at Gampo Abbey. I've never listened to a better lecturer, and I've listened to many.
Thanks to both of you.
Brigid
"With the body" see: DN 22
Also see: MN 95 (excerpt)
Jason
Nice to see you!
O.K. I'm going to read Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference in a little while. And I've saved the Canki Sutta for later as well.
Thank you sooo much.
I hope you're well.
Brigid
You're welcome. I am as well as I can be I suppose.
In Pali, the pronunciation is not always going to be the same depending on who ask. As nothing was written down during the Buddha's time, the modern day pronunciation of this language has been pieced together from other similar dialects of that time [such as Prakrit, Sanskrit, etc]. You see, over the many years of this languge's history, the pronunciation of this dialect has developed certain variants depending on the native tongue it is chanted in. For example, there isn't any universally accepted convention governing stress or accent. But, if we use the basic guide of taking the Sanskritic accent as a rule in Pali, c is pronounced as ch in church, a is pronounced as u in hut, n is pronounced as n in name, k is pronounced as k in king, and ī is pronounced as ee in beet.
I hope that this will help you to pronounce the name.
Jason
That's exactly the kind of thing I needed!
I've written it down and will refer to it.
Phonetics also helps me a great deal, if there's ever any opportunity. I have a hard time with the glossaries of pronunciations I've gotten online. I just don't understand them. I think I was sick that week in school. LOL!
Thanks.
Brigid
P.S. So it would sound something like "Chun kee"?
Lot's of great stuff to peruse here-
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50
An online Pali dictionary-
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html
And some pronunciation links for you:
http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/pali/primer/pronunciation.html
http://orunla.org/tm/pali/alpha.html
http://www.aimwell.org/Help/Pali/pali.html (this one has audio for lot's of examples)
Hope this helps you out. I got all these links from the first link, so I won't take any credit for finding this stuff.
_/\_
metta
OMG! This is great!! Thank you sooo much for finding these for me. You've inspired me to take it further and search E-Sangha for Sanskrit resources, too. This is really great. I'm totally thrilled!! (I haven't used the word "totally" since I was 16!!)
THANK YOU!!
Brigid
This should be fun..... !! Pass the dictionary, gurl....!!
Glad I could help. And, obviously, check the Sanskrit subforum for Sanskrit resources:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=51
take care
_/\_
metta
LOL!! I can barely speak my own language!
When I was listening to Pema Chodron on CD I was amazed that the name Rinpoche is pronounced "Rinpochay" and sounds almost French! First time I've ever heard it spoken. It's so much fun to hear words and names you've only read before.
Not1,
I got a TON of stuff from that link as well. Thank you so much!!
Brigid
Note 891 (from a traditional Pali commentary) in Bhikkhu Bodhi's tr. of the Majjhima Nikaya says "He realises Nibbana with the mental body (of the path of stream-entry)..."
Nama-kaya = mental body and refers to the four non-physical khandas (or skandhas).
So, the form-flesh-rupa body is not meant at all.
You are welcome.