Thought Crime

ThailandTom

We are all aware of the precepts for the lay follower, and they are there to guide who ever may choose to follow them for a reason. I was sat not doing a whole lot earlier contemlating a few things, and something sprung to mind that I want to put out there in newbuddhist.

Before I start I am by no means saying that any violation of the precepts is just or that I live my life breaking them daily. I first came to think about the act of lying, a verbal violation. If one tells a lie to a person, that is going against a precept. Now, of course it depends on the lie and many variables, but even if the lie was not found out, how exactly does it have a negative effect on you as a person? I considered that it may mentally chip away at you, but some people have the ability to lie as if they were breathing.
Then I thought about the act of sexual misconduct. If someone were to have sex with a person outside of their relationship, it would cause suffering if they were found out to your partner, subsequently yourself and maybe others, but if it were to be found out, how would that have a negative effect on you as a person? With all of these violation situations they are mental because that is where the violation remains. If you are a person who has little or no care, I can only see it having a negative effect in the form of karma.

Would anybody care to add anything, their opinion or help me out here?

ThailandTom

I really should re-read what I write before posting, so many errors. I edited them all but ran out of time

federica

Well Tom, I guess it depends on whether you are discussing the actions of Buddhists, or non-Buddhists, as to whether they give a flying fig about their kamma or not....
As buddhists, we care.
That's why we practice.

Cinorjer

Certain types of behavior reinforce a selfish disregard for the suffering of others, and that selfish disregard turns into self-destructive behavior. Everything you do effects who you are. In fact, one old Zen master simply put it, "Whatever you do, that is your Buddha nature."

Let's take lies. When you lie to someone, you have to justify why you are doing it in your mind. There is the rare time when the lie is spoken from compassion, but mostly it's because you're trying to hide something you did, or take advantage of someone, or any of a number of selfish reasons. You are only reinforcing the selfish desires that cause your own suffering.

So you might "get away with it" when you act selfishly, but you're only continuing to feed your Dukkha.

seeker242

I would say that it feeds and causes the 3 poisons to continue to persist in your mind. Whether or not someone found out about it would be irrelevant.

This puts it well I think.

Unlike the theory of linear causality — which led the Vedists and Jains to see the relationship between an act and its result as predictable and tit-for-tat — the principle of this/that conditionality makes that relationship inherently complex. The results of kamma experienced at any one point in time come not only from past kamma, but also from present kamma. This means that, although there are general patterns relating habitual acts to corresponding results [§9], there is no set one-for-one, tit-for-tat, relationship between a particular action and its results. Instead, the results are determined by the context of the act, both in terms of actions that preceded or followed it [§11] and in terms one's state of mind at the time of acting or experiencing the result [§13]. As we noted in the Introduction, the feedback loops inherent in this/that conditionality mean that the working out of any particular cause-effect relationship can be very complex indeed. This explains why the Buddha says in §12 that the results of kamma are imponderable. Only a person who has developed the mental range of a Buddha — another imponderable itself — would be able to trace the intricacies of the kammic network. The basic premise of kamma is simple — that skillful intentions lead to favorable results, and unskillful ones to unfavorable results — but the process by which those results work themselves out is so intricate that it cannot be fully mapped.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part1.html#part1-b

ThailandTom

Thank you for the feedback, it has in fact reminded me of something I forgot,I have a book by the Dalai Lama where in one section he speaks in detail about how karma works with relation to intention, the action and the feeling after the action has been commited. Without going back to read it and trying to recall, if you take for example the action of telling a lie and there is a weak intention, then after the action has been conducted there is little/no satisfaction, then the negative karma produced will be weaker or more dilute than if the intention was strong and the feeling after was one of great satisfaction.

driedleaf

What is self? What is it that generates love and hate? What is it that accepts pain from others? We do not really know the answers to these, but we do know that we can feel pain. We do know that it hurts us to be physically harmed, cheated, lied to, and be misled. When thoughts arise about why we need to follow precepts, we only need to think logically. We would not any of those things to happen to us.

vinlyn

To me it's sort of like exercise. Let's say it's New Years and you make a resolution to get daily exercise...perhaps a 30 minute walk. Then one day it's a little chilly and you say to yourself that's a good reason to take the day off from exercise. Another day you're a little tired, so you take the day off again. Another day you just haven't organized your schedule very well, so you take the day off again. Pretty soon your resolution totally fails. It's not that any one reason you took a day off was unreasonable, it's just that you were being mentally sloppy and you moved further and further down the slippery slope.

Keeping the Precepts is sort of like that. Do I ever lie? Yes. Pretty rarely, but there are times I justify it. But, before I do, I really do think about it very carefully...I try to be mindful of what I am about to do, and the reasons behind it...and then sometimes I decide, yes this is one time to lie or adjust the truth...other times I decide, no, this isn't worth it.

You've got to keep those spiritual muscles toned as much as possible.

Iktomi

Well Tom, I guess it depends on whether you are discussing the actions of Buddhists, or non-Buddhists, as to whether they give a flying fig about their kamma or not....
As buddhists, we care.
That's why we practice.

Speak for yourself. Many Buddhists practice because they care about the well being of others, not because they care about kamma and other religious dogma.

federica

Speak for yourself. Many Buddhists practice because they care about the well being of others, not because they care about kamma and other religious dogma.

I chose to address the question, not make assumptions or tangential presumptions....therefore, I was addressing the OP's post.
anything else would be off-topic.

Iktomi

Oh the OP. The underlying principle there is selfishness/selflessness, quite simply. What are ya gonna practice? Not strictly about Buddhism at all.

Tosh

If someone were to have sex with a person outside of their relationship, it would cause suffering if they were found out to your partner, subsequently yourself and maybe others, but if it were to be found out, how would that have a negative effect on you as a person?

From experience, I can tell you a little of the negative effects of this.

When you have an affair, you worry you're going to get caught having one. You're worried about your mobile phone being checked and you've forgotten to delete 'evidence', or phone records, you're worried about smelling of perfume, you're worried about a lipstick mark, you're worried about having someone else's hair on your clothes, you're worried about your alibis for 'time' getting found out to be wrong, you're worried about STDs, you're worried about emotional attachment that you may not want, you're worried about the consequences of getting found out too.

And because you're worried about 'this', it will have an effect on 'that'; it will affect other areas of your life, for example your concentration at work, or your mood, and your personal relationships in general.

I've never been found out, but I have learnt there are consequences to sexual misconduct, whether you're caught or not, the hard way.

seeker242

Well Tom, I guess it depends on whether you are discussing the actions of Buddhists, or non-Buddhists, as to whether they give a flying fig about their kamma or not....
As buddhists, we care.
That's why we practice.

Speak for yourself. Many Buddhists practice because they care about the well being of others, not because they care about kamma and other religious dogma.

And many see both of those as being the exact same thing.

vinlyn

@seeker242: I see them as separate issues that are often found together.

ajnast4r

beyond the metaphysical aspects of 5 precepts... a large part if it is how those things effect your mind. i think whether or not you have any immediately discernible guilt or a sense of moral shame over doing things like harming, lying, stealing etc... those things effect the mind in a negative way, at a very subtle level. if you know people who are chronic liars, you understand how that lying effects their wellbeing. people who 'lie like they are breathing' are not happy people. same thing with sex outside the relationship.

Jeffrey

If you don't tell the truth you will lose your relationship to the truth. Isn't truth important in life? How can you find truth if you don't tell it to others?

Iktomi

Well Tom, I guess it depends on whether you are discussing the actions of Buddhists, or non-Buddhists, as to whether they give a flying fig about their kamma or not....
As buddhists, we care.
That's why we practice.

Speak for yourself. Many Buddhists practice because they care about the well being of others, not because they care about kamma and other religious dogma.

And many see both of those as being the exact same thing.

Others see them as tangenitals.

seeker242

Well Tom, I guess it depends on whether you are discussing the actions of Buddhists, or non-Buddhists, as to whether they give a flying fig about their kamma or not....
As buddhists, we care.
That's why we practice.

Speak for yourself. Many Buddhists practice because they care about the well being of others, not because they care about kamma and other religious dogma.

And many see both of those as being the exact same thing.

Others see them as tangenitals.

And the Buddha does not.

Peace2012ca

beyond the metaphysical aspects of 5 precepts... a large part if it is how those things effect your mind. i think whether or not you have any immediately discernible guilt or a sense of moral shame over doing things like harming, lying, stealing etc... those things effect the mind in a negative way, at a very subtle level. if you know people who are chronic liars, you understand how that lying effects their wellbeing. people who 'lie like they are breathing' are not happy people. same thing with sex outside the relationship.

I think this is brilliant. When you break a precept, it leaves a negative imprint on your mind or consciousness. This leads to stress, anger, fatigue which lowers the quality of life in other areas.

Example of Kamma in action. You lie, feel bad about lying, more likely to trip.
Example 2: you drink alcohol, hung over the next day. Cause and Effect.
Example 3: You don't study for an exam, you fail.
Example 4: you insult someone -> they may beat up or spread bad news about you

Jeffrey

@Peace2012ca yup its all choices.. but the past and future are only thoughts... the choices are right now.... so those thoughts need to be put into perspective and seen as the three marks...this too shall pass (impermanence), non-self (?? this one is difficult I need help ??), dukkha (this is hard too without being desparing,, but disillusionment can lead to peace rather than feeling lost)..

ThailandTom

@Tosh your comment really helped to address part of the conclusion for me, I have never been in such a situation but now can see how an affair could really tamper with your well being and life even if you did not get caught. In fact, it may have a longer, more negative effect if you were never caught. You would constantly be in a state of anxiety and guilt, unless you have one of those mindsets where you can do such things and just forget about them.
I do not know who said it, but I once read that it is wise to learn from your own mistakes, but wiser to learn from other people's mistakes as well.

I posted this topic because I am starting to investigate the mind more in the sense of how it operates and is effected by actions or arising factors. Seeing as everything is within the mind and that is where cultivation happens, I consider it a good place to begin investgating :P