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Clinging to Ego/Self
leahnc
Explorer
I have a long long long way to go on this road to Enlightenment!
Im quite attached to the person/ego that I call self. Im attached to self & the concept of No Self is one that I stumble with. Who am I without the labels, the neurotic tendencies, the person I thought I was? Do I have to drop all of my labels? I also have good qualities too - caring, loving, patient.......
Is it normal to grieve your old self during this process? Is it normal to fear the road of becoming enlightened?
Im quite attached to the person/ego that I call self. Im attached to self & the concept of No Self is one that I stumble with. Who am I without the labels, the neurotic tendencies, the person I thought I was? Do I have to drop all of my labels? I also have good qualities too - caring, loving, patient.......
Is it normal to grieve your old self during this process? Is it normal to fear the road of becoming enlightened?
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In hearing, just sounds no hearer.
In tasting, just tastes no taster.
In feeling, just sensations no feeler.
In smelling, just smells no smeller.
In seeing, just colors, forms, shapes no seer.
The subject and object are assumptions. In direct experience there is just processes meeting processes. Notice for yourself.
also about your labels. are they yours? do thoughts just come and go as they please? what about sounds? what about what you feel? can you control these in the present moment?
THERE IS NOTHING TO DROP BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS DROPPING BY ITSELF.
nor is there truly a self other then your projection/assumption of self as a reference point in relation to everything else.
Just look where is this self?
You described good qualities...that is very close...because your true being is the good and pure and innocent.
Who would you be?
Liberated.
Spiny
The agent and subject is asserted after the experience.
There is absolutely no control of thoughts. Everything arises spontaneously based on causes/conditions. Not only that thought disappear spontaneously as well.
The process of thinking thinks, which is mind, mental object and the arising of thought consciousness. which arises dependently on various causes/conditions.
Spiny
why would we decide to have negative thoughts?
the present is a reflection of all past karma. this arising thought is arising because of past karma. there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.
but we can plant seeds. by say not responding to the thought negatively. we can see oh just thought but that is merely thought talking to thought.
either way everything is dependently arisen. a process meeting process. traceless and completely devoid of inherent existence. thus appearing vividly as if real.
the notion of subject/object or agency or inherency are all just subtle/not so subtle clinging/conditioning.
the future in fact is completely controllable.
both require no agents, but dependent origination.
-with metta, Gui
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html
Spiny
what you describe is not abnormal (if there is such a thing as normal!)... fear is also natural and normal... sometimes, it is fear that points us in the right direction...
Keep on your journey
there are three views we can have on this.
either things happen randomly, god does it, or everything is based on causes/conditions. only one of them is right.
right view also conditions right effort. realizing/understanding emptiness automatically conditions great aspiration, which in turn conditions right effort.
also we are intrinsically attached towards happiness, while we intrinsically move away from suffering. what makes us happy? helping others. how can we help others? by attaining full buddhahood as fast as possible. how do we do that? by being happy, helping others.
but no agent, no doer, just pure doing. where does doing arise from? again we cannot say it arise, nor ceased. dependently origination negates such dualistic/inherent view.
but i am very simple headed. there is no true agent, just assumption based on wrong view (inherency/dualism).
never was there subject/object, but just pure doing. processes meeting processes. but with no referents.
Taiyaki you got 5 likes ---> go to god realm
Everyone else who wishes they have 5 likes ----> go to asura realm
in pure doing there is only the process of various causes/conditions coming together as a dynamic process. things or entities and even processes are all projections that are asserted retroactively.
so this or that, or really any reference point is merely an assumption based on conditioning. in a way its our language that is strictly coded to assert duality/inherency.
but reality is always processes meeting processes. thus everything is completely traceless.
moving from point a to b. the mind links the interdependent experience of six senses together and forms a self/other. but when examining experience there is only the arising of the 6 realms. each completely independent and devoid of inherent existence.
where, when, who are all assertions based on previous experience. even time and space only exist with reference points. without the assumption of a reference point there cannot be duality/inherency. these are all just assumptions.
dependent origination and emptiness break down the view that there is or isn't a self. to deny self is to assert. its the same game.
a good example is to look at an object and see how the eye moves. it moves from one point to another. and then you can see how the mind projects wholeness on the basis of parts. but even the parts are wholes projected on the basis of smaller parts. and then you start to see how truly there is no link between the color of something and its form, shape, concept, feeling, etc.
the nature of thoughts is the lack of nature. thus thoughts are self liberated upon inception. emptiness of thought is easy.
try everything else.
all reference points are projections. even the projection is a projection.
Each of the six realms of experience are unlinked, independent of each other.
This corresponds directly with what dependent origination is pointing to.
eye consciousness arises when eye and form make contact. thus a process, thus empty of inherent existence.
each of the sense consciousness arise in the same way.
the mind is the only link between these free floating manifestations.
with emptiness you can even break it down even more.
where do these emptiness arise? no reference points. so fundementally they are unborn.
not only that they are ungraspable. yet they completely appear. phenomena = awareness.
appearance-emptiness.
thus the buddha points out that things are like a dream. "like".
applications of is, is not, neither is or is not, both is or is not do not apply.
pizza time.
But when we look for self we cannot find it in the parts.
So the self exists as a nominal projection on the basis of parts. Body and mind and conceptual inputation make effort but there is no inherently exising self. Just processes.
Spiny
FORMATIONS- There are three kinds of Formations: Mental Formations; Verbal Formations; and Bodily Formations. For our purposes of explaining this now, this link is a POTENTIAL link. It is the potential for arising formations at the sense doors.
CONSCIOUSNESS- This Consciousness link is the POTENTIAL link for the sense base consciousness which occurs during Cognition. Consciousness has it happens at each of the sense doors so you have i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, and mind consciousness which kicks in during cognition at each of the sense doors as contact is happening.
MENTALITY-MATERIALITY- This link has two aspects. MATERIALITY is the external aspect of cognition operation for the sense door and MENTALITY is the internal structural aspect of operation for the sense door during cognition.
i.e. MATERIALITY the eye sees outside of the body sights..... MENTALITY- the eye has the physical eye and eye-conscioiusness which operates during cognition. although we don't usually watch this link in our meditation, its there and it's IMPERSONAL.
SIX SENSE BASE- This is simply the human being or animal's Eyes, Ears, Nose, Tongue, Body and Mind, The first four are the external bases and Mind is the internal base. These sense doors are IMPERSONAL. When you get up in the morning and open your eye, you do not decide what the eye will see. Challenge yourself to play with all the sense doors and check this out.
CONTACT- Contact has three parts ffor it to occur. You must have a sense door + that sense door object must impinge the door + that sense door consciousness must arise for contact to happen . i.e. The Eye meets color and form and Eye-Consciousness arises. the meeting of the three is eye-contact.
This is the EYE + COLOR &FORM + EYE-CONSCIOUSNESS = Eye-Contact.
During this process Perception occurs and this is how we NAME a Blue vase, for instance.
with contact as condition
FEELING arises. - FEELING is always IMPERSONAL and there are three kinds.
Painful feeling, Pleasant feeling, and Neither Painful nor Pleasant.
With feeling as condition,
CRAVING arises- This is the first PERSONAL link! This is where personality first appears! CRAVING always manifests as tension and tightness in mind and in body. It is the "I" like it or the "I" don't like it mind arising.
With craving as condition,
CLINGING arises- Clinging is all of the stories, ideas, concepts, opinions, and views of WHY "I" don't like it or "I" like it. This is a PERSONAL LINK too.
With this clinging as condition, emotions start here. Emotions are not feelings.They are emotions ( anger, frustration, sadness, depression, happy, ) This is interesting....
With clinging as condition,
HABITUAL TENDENCY arises. This is a PERSONAL link too. This is your little private library of RE-ACTIONS that we have in our head. Each one of us is different and because we use this library unconsciously, we are actually not living and responding in life, but, rather we are RE-ACTING.
With habitual tendency as condition,
BIRTH OF ACTION arises. Remember we said this was about an event. And this is where after choosing the re-action to be used in a situation, the Birth of Action takes place. The Buddha said that action is always Physical, Verbal, or Mental action.
Usually it is a RE-ACTION as I said and the action which happens can be all three kinds happening on top of one another.
With the Birth of action as condition,
AGING AND DEATH arise and this is really a short form title.
What happens is you have the event Aging and Death work it's way through revealing all of the suffering in the form of Sorrow, Lamentation, Pain, Grief and Despair as it plays out.
-
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/401038
not sure this helps but it makes sense in my personal practice/head.
ignorance conditions volition, thus the anger, irritation and hatred arise via consciousness thus conditioning more ignorance.
wisdom conditions volition, thus compassion and love arise via consciousness thus conditioning more wisdom.
each of the links are completely interdependent. everything is both a cause and an effect.
ignorance conditions each part of the link and each part of the link condition ignorance. so the 12 link chain isn't much a linear line but more like a circle with each part intimately connected to the other parts.
volition can be broken down into two energies. the will to be selfish and the will to be selfless.
from the point of ignorance, volition causes a shit storm of problems.
from the point of clear understanding/wisdom, volition turns into bodhicitta or the great aspiration of the bodhisattva.
so there is the twelve link dependent origination chain of suffering and the chain which transforms ignorance into wisdom and great positive qualities come from such chain.
not sure this helps.
Though I'm not sure this is what's being described in the teaching on dependent origination.
Spiny
Spiny
There is the cause of stress/suffering and the cessation of the stress/suffering.
That isn't an idea really.
It works or it doesn't and that is up to the practitioner to find out.
Metta.
Another truth is that we are empty of self existence. Not a separate thing at all. Co-dependently originated. Interrelated to everything else that exists which is also empty.
If you look closely you will probably see the thing you actually fear is non-being. Which is impossible. Being and non-being are concepts your ego created in your imagination. Reality does not support them. So let go and be free.
Best Wishes