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@Iktomi, in buddhism attachment means you get angry when things change. Whereas interaction might be in a poised spacious mindset that adjusts to changes. Basically buddhists practice because they don't like change.
Point is that even in the "spacious" mind state there is interaction and connection. Metaphysical things don't need to be connected or interactive. They can be any way that anyone wishes them to be and there's no way to prove or deny them, because there's no way to interact or connect with them.
Yes there is connection. But in an enlightened being the spaciousness means that when things are changing they are able to relax into the new flow which this adjustment also makes their mind flexible to have a clear vision rather than hanging onto 'old tricks'.
It's all experienced based except the awareness cannot be pinned down, which is to say that an airtight metaphysics is rather elusive.
@Iktomi, in buddhism attachment means you get angry when things change. Whereas interaction might be in a poised spacious mindset that adjusts to changes. Basically buddhists practice because they don't like change.
Point is that even in the "spacious" mind state there is interaction and connection. Metaphysical things don't need to be connected or interactive. They can be any way that anyone wishes them to be and there's no way to prove or deny them, because there's no way to interact or connect with them.
Yes there is connection. But in an enlightened being the spaciousness means that when things are changing they are able to relax into the new flow which this adjustment also makes their mind flexible to have a clear vision rather than hanging onto 'old tricks'.
Adjustments to a "permanent mind state." That doesn't sound so permanent.
I don't see interacting with and being attach to as synonymous...
Alright let's look at this. The terms 'interaction' and 'attach' are not synonymous, that's true. However the fundamental characteristic these terms have in common is connection. In order for things to interact they must somehow connect, right? Obviously things that are attached have a connection. Are we clear so far?
Well, it'd help if you defined your terms (e.g., attached) and attempted to relate them to Buddhist terminology a bit more, which would certainly help clarify things for me. For example, in Buddhist terms, this would be describe in terms of contact (phassa) between sense objects and their corresponding sense bases. And my understanding is that, in normal, everyday, unawakened experience, clinging (upadana) arises due to the presence of craving (tahna) in this chain of mental causation/interaction, which in turn is what conditions the arising of mental stress and suffering (dukkha). In awakened experience, however, clinging and craving are mental components that are no longer present in this chain, and will never again arise (hence my statement about awakening being permanent as opposed to a temporary, meditative state). In other words, there are still connections involved, which themselves aren't permanent; but the connections aren't characterized by attachment in the Buddhist sense of the word, which is a common translation of upadana. This is why I think we may be arguing semantics here, since you seem to be using the word attach to mean something that doesn't necessarily correspond to the Pali word upadana.
@Iktomi, in buddhism attachment means you get angry when things change. Whereas interaction might be in a poised spacious mindset that adjusts to changes. Basically buddhists practice because they don't like change.
Point is that even in the "spacious" mind state there is interaction and connection. Metaphysical things don't need to be connected or interactive. They can be any way that anyone wishes them to be and there's no way to prove or deny them, because there's no way to interact or connect with them.
Yes there is connection. But in an enlightened being the spaciousness means that when things are changing they are able to relax into the new flow which this adjustment also makes their mind flexible to have a clear vision rather than hanging onto 'old tricks'.
Adjustments to a "permanent mind state." That doesn't sound so permanent.
I agree! Maybe I'm not following the whole discussion, but I agree with you there. A buddha is not a mind state,, I don't think so. I think for the most part we get few glimpses of the state of a buddha. Maybe at some special time in our life.. Maybe not. I would like to think that spiritual work helps. And no I can't prove that there is such a thing as a buddha. Nonetheless, the journey is meaningful to me. So it kinda works. It is said that buddha's dharma is good in the beginning good in the middle and good at the end. That is indeed in need of interpretation, but I think the point is you find the buddha in your own experience; where else?
I will tell you what I think, perhaps I am wrong. When we are in our ordinary mind we have attachments in the way of thoughts and problems. The thoughts we have and the ordinary mind are related to each other. Then we use meditation or another tool (koans for example) and our attachments begin to decrease more and more. The number of thoughts we have which cause suffering or a dualistic way of perceiving things, begin to disappear. Then one day it happens, you sit down and you consider that everything is done and there is nothing in what to be attached. You only sit down and meditate. It doesn't really matters you are a buddhist or an hinduist or a christian, thoughts that attached you to ordinary mind disappear and you are in another world. In this world there is compassion or love, it is like being in a ball of light that covers everything, this universe and beyond it, the infinite. You can call it what you like, the nature of the light, enlightment, God, Brahman... this doesn't really matters. In fact if you think that it is God or the nature of the mind, the light will disappear and you will return to your ordinary mind. This is our true nature from which I deem we have descended (this is only my opinion) . For some reason, we have decided to have a time "to practice" to have some entertainment although this will cause us suffering. But suffering is not a bad thing, it also allows us to go back to our true nature little by little. We don't need so many buddhist and hinduists terminology to be in the nature of the mind, we only have to sit and meditate and concentrate in our true nature. Everyone can do it.
..... thoughts that attached you to ordinary mind disappear and you are in another world. In this world there is compassion or love, it is like being in a ball of light that covers everything, this universe and beyond it, the infinite. ...Everyone can do it.
Yes. When attachments drop, then we are able to just sit and fully encounter the present moment, nothing else. I am not sure about the otherworldly bit. Light comes with samadhi, but that is not it.
It is more like seeing this world as it truly is, then you know who you are. Not self, not Buddha and compassion and love naturally arises.
It might also be that ones compassion and love muscle hitherto had not much exercise. Thus practices like Lam Rim and the identification with Chenrezig, is such a valuable practice. Being a bodhisattva before you are one means that you don't find your insight outstripping your actions. Same with metta practice.
Dear Dharmafield It is sometimes very difficult to express things. When I said ball of light I refer to expand and see everybody in complete perfection, everything perfect... The first time it happened to me I was surprised because things are not that way in this world or universe we are. But I have to say that I still have shortcomings in my life, I should sometimes behave better in life instead of having negative feelings. It is a first step I think, after nine years practicing meditation nearly three hours a day. It has taken me three years after my first experience (it was three years ago) to be this way again and more often. When I meditated I said..."I want to repeat this experience again" . Then it never came because I was trying to grab something, the experience again. This caused many thoughts in my meditations. I got more and more excited and it never came again. One day a year ago, I said to me to sit down and meditate and only try to be. And it happened again...From then it has not stopped.
@almer45 I think you have entered the way and I am sure you know that. I haven't become perfect either, my personal life has issues and I tend to have a critical edge which is slowly being gloved. I find Sufi practices which emphasise love and acceptance help, but I suspect perfection is an ideal, set in myth. Sufi's are far more celebratory than Buddhists...I think we can learn from them. Buddha da da da....da dadda da... Not quite right, but something to play with
I don't see interacting with and being attach to as synonymous...
Alright let's look at this. The terms 'interaction' and 'attach' are not synonymous, that's true. However the fundamental characteristic these terms have in common is connection. In order for things to interact they must somehow connect, right? Obviously things that are attached have a connection. Are we clear so far?
Well, it'd help if you defined your terms (e.g., attached) and attempted to relate them to Buddhist terminology a bit more, which would certainly help clarify things for me. For example, in Buddhist terms, this would be describe in terms of contact (phassa) between sense objects and their corresponding sense bases. And my understanding is that, in normal, everyday, unawakened experience, clinging (upadana) arises due to the presence of craving (tahna) in this chain of mental causation/interaction, which in turn is what conditions the arising of mental stress and suffering (dukkha). In awakened experience, however, clinging and craving are mental components that are no longer present in this chain, and will never again arise (hence my statement about awakening being permanent as opposed to a temporary, meditative state). In other words, there are still connections involved, which themselves aren't permanent; but the connections aren't characterized by attachment in the Buddhist sense of the word, which is a common translation of upadana. This is why I think we may be arguing semantics here, since you seem to be using the word attach to mean something that doesn't necessarily correspond to the Pali word upadana.
Is that a no, we are not clear so far? What I wrote doesn't make any sense to you?
Comments
It's all experienced based except the awareness cannot be pinned down, which is to say that an airtight metaphysics is rather elusive.
It is more like seeing this world as it truly is, then you know who you are. Not self, not Buddha and compassion and love naturally arises.
It might also be that ones compassion and love muscle hitherto had not much exercise. Thus practices like Lam Rim and the identification with Chenrezig, is such a valuable practice. Being a bodhisattva before you are one means that you don't find your insight outstripping your actions. Same with metta practice.
It is sometimes very difficult to express things. When I said ball of light I refer to expand and see everybody in complete perfection, everything perfect... The first time it happened to me I was surprised because things are not that way in this world or universe we are. But I have to say that I still have shortcomings in my life, I should sometimes behave better in life instead of having negative feelings. It is a first step I think, after nine years practicing meditation nearly three hours a day. It has taken me three years after my first experience (it was three years ago) to be this way again and more often. When I meditated I said..."I want to repeat this experience again" . Then it never came because I was trying to grab something, the experience again. This caused many thoughts in my meditations. I got more and more excited and it never came again. One day a year ago, I said to me to sit down and meditate and only try to be. And it happened again...From then it has not stopped.