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@taiyaki, the problem with that is that depression is not a colloquial word. It refers to a serious medical condition that undermines coping skills. It is just more suffering to be with others during medical depression. Seeing your inadequacy makes things worse as. It is better to get some alone time. Sometimes.
But small acts of kindness with little risk of failure are good. It's like building a fire.
where is the mind? it is unfindable, ungraspable, no reference points. it is only an assumption of condition that mind exists. mind is no mind.
how can something by its nature be liberated if its nature is liberation?
Should we call a caterpillar a butterfly? Wouldn't that cause confusion?
"firewood does not turn into ashes, firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood while ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, while at the same time ash contains firewood, firewood contains ash (all is the manifestation of the interdependent universe as if the entire universe is coming together to give rise to this experience and thus all is contained in one single expression). " -Dogen
@taiyaki, the problem with that is that depression is not a colloquial word. It refers to a serious medical condition that undermines coping skills. It is just more suffering to be with others during medical depression. Seeing your inadequacy makes things worse as. It is better to get some alone time. Sometimes.
But small acts of kindness with little risk of failure are good. It's like building a fire.
then its important to see the causes/conditions that give rise to depression.
what actions of body, speech, and mind are you feeding.
in a way it is only wisdom that brings about true change.
One insight in depression is to let go of obsession with not having "the good feeling".. Just accept that you are depressed and think: "ok now granted that I am going to be depressed,,, what do I want to do today?"
It's the lack of self-esteem. Thus the guilt, fear, insecurity and loads of desire. But do you think Easterners are different? Suffering is the same. Happiness is a worthy goal.
Yes there are 3 methods to bring about true happiness, giving, meditation, and virtues. But you would have to go about those methods. You have to actually give, and not just talk about it. Its within the experience itself. True happiness would mean "actual" experience. Not just the finger pointing the way, but actually walking down the path. Anything else would not last as long.
I think that for being the living example that he was, the Buddha is considered one of the three jewels. When you are depressed (somewhere on the scale from being ill to having a serious condition), it is very hard to imagine joy. Joy will seem like a story, without much reality to it. But if you believe that the Buddha (and others before him and after him) reached a state of great joy, this can be very uplifting. It will correct for the negative thinking that comes from being depressed.
@taiyaki, thinking about this I will grant that an opportunity to give to others surely helps depression. This morning I was really lifeless like my body was being crushed. Just posting a bit on the forum helped. What I was trying to say was that projecting a picture of yourself 'if only I helped others' can lead to 'gaining mind' behaviour.
When suffering is here, i think about all the sentient beings who deal with the same suffering. The heart opens and compassion and kindness pour out.
When joy is here, I think about all the sentient beings who could be abiding in the same joy but because they do not see buddhaharma they cannot see through samsara.
Using both the suffering and joy, the bodhisattva uses everything as fuel for full buddhahood. Because then the bodhisattva will know how to help everyone.
Lets all strive to finish this off. We move with loving kindness, joy, peace, and compassion with the sword of wisdom.
@taiyaki, I'm pointing to the fact that opening the heart is not a trick to experience sukkha. You have to feel dukkha first. You can't be tricky and welcome the dukkha always with it in the back of your mind that the motive is to get the sukkha.
As far as helping others it needs to be an organic response. Awake heart present open. It can't be "I will be happy if I help other". What if you're not? Then you are disillusioned on top of everything else.
whether or not it makes you happy, you still do it. virya is not conditional, though it can be at first.
we are not suffering all the time. we are usually in the waiting period before the suffering. and this is where right effort is most important.
while going through suffering, right effort is difficult. don't disengage or negate your suffering. suffering is understood through wisdom will automatically lead to compassion for self/other. so that is the first goal.
but the greater goal is to be happier and more content with just life as it is. with the suffering, with the happiness, all of it.
life is about learning to have a noble heart and confidence to allow suffering and happiness. Both are vital.
everything is an organic process, but we can condition ourselves and make right effort.
we can help others, and not expect results. just help to help. we need to move from being helped to helpers.
just a little wisdom is needed. that is the first requirement. then one can see how helping actually helps with the whole issue of being helped.
nothing is black and white. but right effort and a bit of happiness is important.
maybe all of this is a result of seeing so much suffering lately. and in a way its my way of coping. but i want to feel the pain. i want to suffer. so that i can smile for those who need my smile.
@taiyaki, virya is conditional.. The first five paramitas are conditional. There is something like virya that is a buddha qualities, but in a depressed person the sun is behind a dark dark cloud. When I was depressed one time it was hard to make coffee and I couldn't read even my mail.
Hatred is very simple. It has one neck to be cut, whereas desire is more complex and many headed. One need notice the hatred is there and it is possible to cut through.
Desire is about uniting with the experience of desire rather than cutting off a head. Because you cut one off and it just shifts to something else. Desire is less dangerous than ignorance because it doesn't necessarily send us into very painful (disempowering like when I couldn't read even when trying more than a paragraph) experiences. Desire is the second most powerful.
Ignorance is the clock and desire is the force that winds the clock. Confusion and ignorance are like depression in many ways. When we are depressed, there seems to be no end or edge to it; the whole world is flavored with depression. Similarly confusion surrounds us like a mist or fog. It has an all pervading claustrophobic quality. When working with confusion we must retain something of the underlying spaciousness, and then let go, dissolve, the negative feeling that goes with it.
Anger is easier to work with in a practical way because it is so clear-cut. Desire is more slippery, and confusion can be difficult to pin down. That's why anger is often the first emotion considered in mind training.
{paraphrased from Rigdzin Shikpo's book Never Turn away}
@taiyaki, virya does not start until the bodhisattva stage. Ultimate bodhicitta is always present but it is obscured into (not by) anger, desire, and ignorance.
The post on: greed, hatred, and ignorance is related to the third noble truth. It's possible to work at that level. And that can be very powerful. Then with regards to the eightfold path that is when right effort and compassion come in. The eightfold path is in all likelyhood? a method or way. Depression changes some of the picture though. You're still on the eightfold path but it is frustrating because the view is so distorted. So a person might be handicapped to volunteer due because they are overwhelmed with the feeling aspect.. too much for them and they must contract etc. In that case they should do whatever they are able to. Create the conditions for some sense of space. Sometimes just getting through the day and doing a few things is a success. It's all relative.
The view in depression isn't an ordinary view that can just be reasoned with. To a certain extent guiding thoughts can help so I don't want to speak in opposition to that. But like one of the posts said there is no edge to the depression it is just perfuming the whole world. So whatever you do feels unfulfilling and the heart energy is not flowing so any kind of catharsis is delayed. It's kind of like how it feels when you try to use your computer and it's just frozen. You press firefox and it doesn't open. So you go somewhere else, task manager. You reboot and that doesn't work. It's very frustrating. I think just being and deep breathing help. Nature helps.
Comments
But small acts of kindness with little risk of failure are good. It's like building a fire.
what actions of body, speech, and mind are you feeding.
in a way it is only wisdom that brings about true change.
oh and time.
But do you think Easterners are different?
Suffering is the same. Happiness is a worthy goal.
maybe i should write that in the details.
not being happy hasn't helped anyone.
it would be nice to see more happier people.
When joy is here, I think about all the sentient beings who could be abiding in the same joy but because they do not see buddhaharma they cannot see through samsara.
Using both the suffering and joy, the bodhisattva uses everything as fuel for full buddhahood. Because then the bodhisattva will know how to help everyone.
Lets all strive to finish this off. We move with loving kindness, joy, peace, and compassion with the sword of wisdom.
For all those that need us.
As far as helping others it needs to be an organic response. Awake heart present open. It can't be "I will be happy if I help other". What if you're not? Then you are disillusioned on top of everything else.
virya is not conditional, though it can be at first.
we are not suffering all the time. we are usually in the waiting period before the suffering. and this is where right effort is most important.
while going through suffering, right effort is difficult. don't disengage or negate your suffering. suffering is understood through wisdom will automatically lead to compassion for self/other. so that is the first goal.
but the greater goal is to be happier and more content with just life as it is. with the suffering, with the happiness, all of it.
life is about learning to have a noble heart and confidence to allow suffering and happiness. Both are vital.
everything is an organic process, but we can condition ourselves and make right effort.
we can help others, and not expect results. just help to help. we need to move from being helped to helpers.
just a little wisdom is needed. that is the first requirement. then one can see how helping actually helps with the whole issue of being helped.
nothing is black and white. but right effort and a bit of happiness is important.
maybe all of this is a result of seeing so much suffering lately. and in a way its my way of coping. but i want to feel the pain. i want to suffer. so that i can smile for those who need my smile.
this is my hearts wish.
Desire is about uniting with the experience of desire rather than cutting off a head. Because you cut one off and it just shifts to something else. Desire is less dangerous than ignorance because it doesn't necessarily send us into very painful (disempowering like when I couldn't read even when trying more than a paragraph) experiences. Desire is the second most powerful.
Ignorance is the clock and desire is the force that winds the clock. Confusion and ignorance are like depression in many ways. When we are depressed, there seems to be no end or edge to it; the whole world is flavored with depression. Similarly confusion surrounds us like a mist or fog. It has an all pervading claustrophobic quality. When working with confusion we must retain something of the underlying spaciousness, and then let go, dissolve, the negative feeling that goes with it.
Anger is easier to work with in a practical way because it is so clear-cut. Desire is more slippery, and confusion can be difficult to pin down. That's why anger is often the first emotion considered in mind training.
{paraphrased from Rigdzin Shikpo's book Never Turn away}
All this is marketed towards the average practioner.
Sorry if i didnt make that clear.
Depression is something i need to mediate on. Its been too long since i've touched depression.
Thanks for the teaching.