Hauntings and Ghosts

comicallyinsane

I have been watching a lot of documentaries on hauntings and ghosts.
What do you all think of it? Can all the people who have witnessed these things all be crazy or lying?

Brigid

No, I don't think they all could be crazy or lying. Hauntings are too well documented. One day we may know and understand their nature but today we don't. We don't understand energy very well yet so our imaginations run wild. I don't think the answers will be nearly as exciting as we think they will be.

Brigid

Xrayman

My wife has seen three ghosts. She's not mad, not lying. There is DEFINITELY something to it. PM me for more information, if you like.

regards,
Xray

harlan

My personal take on ghosts and spirits/gods...is that they are projections of the viewer. Depending on many factors (brain chemistry, spiritual maturity, psychological filters and who knows what else) these phenomena can be instructional...whether one sees them 'awake' or in 'dream'.

not1not2

My personal opinion is that ghosts are a real phenomena, but the exact nature of this phenomena is hard to ascertain. I've personally noticed that there are certain environmental conditions (both mental & physical) which more easily give rise to these experiences.

So, when it is dark, the mind generally becomes more active, and states similar to dreaming can occur. It's like the mind wants to fill in the blanks, and creates projections based on the inner mental state. Now, this leads me to a lot of questions. Is the mind just filling in the blanks at all times, like right now, in a similar fashion? If so, then all our experience is dreamlike in nature. If that is the case, then we can regard dreams and other experiences to have an equal amount of reality to our 'waking' experience, just with qualitative differences.

The big question, for me, is whether there is any objective reality to these experiences. I personally have had a ghost experience where the physical location of the presence was verified by a friend of mine who was with me at the time (without me giving any indications as to what or where I had ascertained the presence to be). This opened up my mind to many possibilities. At risk of sounding like a whacko, I will tell the full story if you guys want me to.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Lot's of questions and implications here as to actual the nature of reality and human experience.

take care & be well

_/\_
metta

harlan

Perhaps we need a 'ghost stories' thread?

angulimala

harlan wrote:

Perhaps we need a 'ghost stories' thread?

it would be wonderfully scary,i like ghost stories

Brigid

Harlan,

Let's make this thread a ghost story thread!

Anguilimala,

Me too!!

Not1,

I agree with absolutely everything you said in your post. So much so that I could have written it myself, except that I've never had a corroborated experience with a ghost or whatever. Yes, please tell us the story!!

Brigid

federica

It was a dark and stormy night.....:zombie: :hair: :eekblue:

harlan

My ghost story:

When I was about 4 or 5 years old we had some family members over for Christmas dinner. I had on a new dress, and my mother had managed to find a little tree for our apartment. It was beautiful...standing on a small table and covered with glittery ornaments.

When our guests arrived, my mother rushed to open the door, and family members came in...happily exchanging greetings while my mother held the door and greeted each of them. The last guest was an old man, with only one arm, that no one seemed to notice. I was surprised when my mother totally ignored him, and almost shut the door on him.

The guests were all adults, and moved into the kitchen...leaving me alone in the living room. Pleased with my pretty new dress, I amused myself by twirling around and around and watching the dress fluff out. At one point, I got too close to the table with the tree. I bumped into it and the tree started to fall. Frightened, I put my hands out and was able to push the tree aright. Relieved that I had averted disaster, I turned...and standing next to the couch was the old man. He looked at me intently, but not unkindly, and said:

'Now...don't you feel foolish?'

I blushed with embarrassment, and asked him 'Who are you?'

He replied, 'I'm your grandfather.'

I looked down. When I looked up...he was gone.

I never met my grandfathers...they both died before I was born. Years later, I brought this up with my mother. Turns out, neither grandfather had lost an arm in life.

Brigid

Ooohhh!!! That's a great story, Harlan. I'd love to know how that happened and what he was thinking. Did he know he was dead? He knew who you were which is interesting because you were born after he died. Did you ever ask other family members about him and if he had only one arm?

It's also interesting that it's always children and animals that see spirits. The whole thing is fascinating.

I've never had an experience like that.

Brigid

buddhafoot

Not to cause anyone any distress, but in my experience, I have never experienced anything like ghosts or spirits.

So... I don't believe in them. Well, actually, I should say - I don't really care if they exist. They may - but at this point - I haven't noticed their affect upon me.

This may change in the future and I'm open to it if it does happen - but at the moment, I don't concern myself with it.

-bf

ajani_mgo

I believe they are signatures, imprints left in the different frequencies of our senses. They will fade away one fine day...

If it has to be proven one day, it may turn out to have similar concepts to karma and stuff.

harlan

'Signatures'....I like that. Kinda like the 'pinging' one experiences when you just 'know' someone close to you is in need.

not1not2

Here's an interesting link on this subject:
http://www.ymba.org/BWF/bwf73.htm

I will take time to post some excerpts on my next break.

take care

_/\_
metta

Brigid

Both of you, Harlan and Ajani, have triggered something in my mind. It's all vague but there's truth somewhere in what you both said and I don't know how to explain it or what it is.

Ajani,

Signatures, imprints and frequencies seem somehow right.

Harlan,

I know what you mean when you say "pinging".

This is all kind of weird because I don't spend much time on things like this but both of your posts struck me in a clear way yet I can't put any of it into words. I feel like you both hit on something but I can't put my finger on it, like I'm trying to recall a dream after waking.

This is kind of interesting.

Brigid

harlan

Interesting link, Ajani.

"Dreaming scenes
If the events or scenes result from evil seeds, the practitioner, in his dreams, may see various species of worms crawling out of his body, or witness himself, night after night, removing from his body six or seven loathesome creatures with many limbs, such as scorpions or centipedes. Or else, he may see various species of wild animals and/or spirits or ghosts. Such realms are innumerable and cannot all be described!
In general, individuals greatly afflicted with greed, who are miserly and wicked, usually see marks of men and women,[63] snakes and serpents and odd species with white features and forms. Those harboring a great deal of anger and resentment usually see tigers and leopards or strange species with red forms and features. Those who are heavily deluded usually see domestic animals, clams, oysters, snails or different species with black forms and features. The above, however, is merely indicative; it does not mean that everything will be exactly as described.

If the scenes in his dreams come from good, wholesome seeds, the practitioner sees tall trees and exotic flowers, beautiful scenery, brightly adorned with nets of pearls.[64] Or else, he sees himself eating succulent, fragrant food, wearing ethereal garments, dwelling in palaces of diamonds and other precious substances, or flying high in open space. "

So, assuming this is true, what does it mean when one encounters Angels and Buddhas in one's dreams?

not1not2

Here a couple of interesting excerpts from the article (which was written from the Pureland perspective) which I previously linked:

External realms are realms which are not created by the mind, but come from the outside. For example, some practitioners might see Buddhas and Bodhisattvas appearing before them, preaching the Dharma, exhorting and praising them. Others, while reciting the Buddha's name, suddenly experience an awakening and immediately see the Land of Ultimate Bliss. Some practitioners, in the midst of their pure recitation, see deities and Immortals arrive, join hands and circumambulate them respectfully, or invite them for a leisurely stroll. Still other practitioners see "wandering souls of the dead" arrive, seeking to "take refuge" with them. Yet others, having reached a high level in their practice, have to endure challenges and harassment from external demons.
For example, there was once a layman of rather dull capacities who constantly worshipped the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. During a dream one night, he saw the Bodhisattva urging him to meditate on the following stanza, and in time he would experience a Great Awakening:

Great wisdom develops from the Mind,
Where in the Mind can it be found?
To realize all meanings,
Is to have neither past nor present.

Another story concerns a nun of the author's acquaintance who was cultivating in the vicinity of Dalat. After her Buddha Recitation session, as she was seated in meditation, she saw two men of noble countenance, dressed like deities or Immortals, respectfully inviting her to scale the mountains and visit their beautiful grounds. In her samadhi, she asked them, "How can I go, when the mountains are so high and I am so weak?" One of the men said, "Do not worry, I have a way." He then touched her lightly with something similar to a willow branch and requested her to follow him. She suddenly saw her body glide effortlessly over the grass, and, in no time, she was scaling the mountains. There she witnessed ethereal scenes, with gigantic trees and a palace and tower in the distance. At that very moment, a companion in the back room dropped something with a bang. The nun suddenly awakened from meditation. All scenes had disappeared but her thighs were still aching from overexertion.

The realms and manifestations summarized above are called "external realms." Some might ask, "To see Buddhas and lotus blossoms -- is it not to see demonic apparitions?"

Answer: If cause and effect coincide, these are not "demonic realms." This is because the Pure Land method belongs to the Dharma Door of Existence; when Pure Land practitioners first set out to cultivate, they enter the Way through forms and marks and seek to view the celestial scenes of the Western Pure Land. When they actually witness these auspicious scenes, it is only a matter of effects corresponding to causes. If cause and effect are in accord, how can these be "demonic realms"?

In the Zen School, on the other hand, the practitioner enters the Way through the Dharma Door of Emptiness. Right from the beginning of his cultivation he wipes out all marks -- even the marks of the Buddhas or the Dharma are destroyed. The Zen practitioner does not seek to view the Buddhas or the lotus blossoms, yet the marks of the Buddhas or the lotus blossoms appear to him. Therefore, cause and effect do not correspond. For something to appear without a corresponding cause is indeed the realm of the demons. Thus, the Zen practitioner always holds the sword of wisdom aloft. If the demons come, he kills the demons, if the Buddha comes, he kills the Buddha -- to enter the realm of True Emptiness is not to tolerate a single mark.

A caveat: we are only talking here about novice cultivators. High-level Zen practitioners do sometimes see various marks which are not demonic realms. When their minds become enlightened, Zen Masters who have practiced meditation for many eons can see evil as well as transcendental realms, including the pure and defiled lands of the ten directions. This is because all worlds are within the light of the True Mind. On the other hand, despite what we have said earlier, Buddha Recitation practitioners sometimes see various marks which are "demonic realms," as will be explained later.

In short, when we refer to "internal" and "external" realms, we are speaking at the level of beginning cultivators. For those who have attained the Way, Mind is realm, realm is Mind, the ten thousand dharmas and ourselves have but one common Nature. There is no inside or outside at all.

and this:

Long ago in China there was a layman who had engaged in meditation for some thirty years. One day, he suddenly attained the faculty of transcendental vision. At the beginning, he would see through walls; later on, he could see things within a few dozen miles as clearly as though they were in front of his eyes. Realizing that he had achieved "transcendental vision," he was very astonished and happy! As time went on, he was not only able to "see" but also "hear" the voices of human beings and animals from far away. This is transcendental hearing, which develops after transcendental vision. As time went by, he could see and hear things that occurred within a radius of several thousand miles. Still later, he was able to predict future events. Thus, he "knew" in advance of a war between two neighboring kingdoms and "witnessed" the pitiful sight of countless dead and dying among the populace. He was so moved that he would weep and lament to whomever he met, "A great, violent uprising is going to occur. There will be massacres and utter misery. The people deserve pity and compassion. How can they be helped!

At the time, everyone who heard him thought he was insane. Later on, however, war and rebellion did occur as he had predicted. Even when the disturbances were over, he continued to go around lamenting. A respected master once commented:

This is a case of possession by the "demons of sorrow and sadness." The cultivator who has reached a certain high level of practice suddenly develops "transcendental vision." He should reflect it toward the Self-Nature, not letting worldly Dusts move and disturb his mind. He should realize that these psychic powers have always been in his possession and should therefore not be unduly happy or astonished or consider them strange and wonderful occurrences.

Another story concerns the eminent Chinese Zen Master Nan-Ch'uan:

The master was meditating in a hut next to a river. One night he heard two ghosts conversing. One of them was rejoicing that his term was coming to an end because the next day someone would be replacing him. The second ghost asked, "Who will be replacing you?" He replied, "A man wearing an iron hat." The master wondered to himself who this person could be. The next day there was heavy rain and the river rose to a higher level. The master looked out of his hut and saw a man about to cross the river. He had covered his head with a wok for protection against the rain. Immediately, the master knew that this was the man of the iron hat, so he cautioned him saying, "Don't cross the river today. It's too dangerous." The man asked, "Why?" "Because the water is very deep and running rapidly." The man listened to the old monk's advice and returned home.

You must understand that in Chinese lore, water ghosts are prisoners until another person drowns and takes their place. That night as he was meditating, the master heard the two ghosts again. This time the first ghost was complaining, "I have been stuck here for so many years, and I thought my chance for freedom had finally come. But now the old monk interfered and messed everything up. I'll show him what I can do." (Sheng-yen, Faith in Mind, p. 64.)

Upon hearing this exchange, the master immediately entered samadhi. He saw the demons enter, exit and go around his hut, as if searching for someone. However, thanks to the fact that his mind in samadhi was empty and still, "not influenced by the environment, no longer tied to mental objects," the demons could not see him. Discouraged, they finally left.

Of the two stories in this section, the first illustrates the danger of succumbing to the influence of demons while the second points to the way of overcoming their influence. I have recounted them here for the benefit of fellow-cultivators.

Take care & be well

_/\_
metta

harlan

Too much data for my weak mind to compute. But I did understand and agree with this:

"There is no inside or outside at all."

not1not2

harlan wrote:

So, assuming this is true, what does it mean when one encounters Angels and Buddhas in one's dreams?

From the link-

This:

If the scenes in his dreams come from good, wholesome seeds, the practitioner sees tall trees and exotic flowers, beautiful scenery, brightly adorned with nets of pearls.[64] Or else, he sees himself eating succulent, fragrant food, wearing ethereal garments, dwelling in palaces of diamonds and other precious substances, or flying high in open space.

Thus, in summary, all the seeds of the ten Dharma Realms are found in the minds of sentient beings. If wholesome seeds manifest themselves, practitioners view the realms of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, human and celestial beings; if evil karma is manifested, they witness scenes from the wretched three Evil Paths. If the cultivator has followed externalist ways in lives past, he usually sees his body emitting electric waves, or his soul leaving the body to roam, meeting demons, ghosts and the like, to discuss politics and the rise and fall of countries and empires.[65] On the other hand, when the practitioner's mind is pure, he will know in his dreams about events that will occur three or four days, or seven or eight months, hence. In general, those who have cultivated in previous lives will immediately see auspicious realms when reciting the Buddha's name. Those with heavy karma, lacking merit and virtue, will usually see evil realms when they begin Buddha Recitation. In time, these evil omens will disappear and gradually be replaced with auspicious omens.

and this:

There are five criteria that can help us determine which events are real and which belong to the demonic realms.

1. Instances where cause and effect do not correspond (such as visualizing one mark but seeing another, hoping to see one realm but seeing another), as well as scenes and realms that do not resemble those described in the sutras, are all demonic realms.

2. Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have pure compassion; therefore, even if they take the appearance of "demons" to test us, we still feel calm, at peace and pure. Demons, on the contrary, are inherently evil and wicked; thus, even when they take the appearance of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, we feel agitated, angry and uneasy.

3. The Buddhas' light makes us feel calm and refreshed; it has neither shadow nor a blinding effect on the eye. The light of demons, on the other hand, affects our eyes and makes us feel agitated rather than calm and peaceful; it also has shadows. The reference to the Buddhas' light in the Lankavatara Sutra illustrates this point.

4. The teachings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are in accord with the sutras and the truth. The words of demons are contrary to the truth and not in line with the sutras' teachings.

5. When an auspicious mark appears, the practitioner who wishes to test it need only concentrate on reciting the Heart Sutra with a pure mind, or reciting a mantra or the Buddha's name with one-pointedness of mind. If the mark really is auspicious, the more he recites, the clearer it becomes, because genuine gold is not harmed by fire. If it belongs to the demonic realm, it disappears as he recites, because evil can never withstand the truth.

We should judge events by all five of the above criteria, not just one or two. This is because there are many celestial demons, externalist deities and Immortals who want to lead us their way and therefore falsely take the appearance of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas preaching the Dharma. Although their cultivation is not the ultimate Way leading to liberation, they may have good karma or a fairly high level of samadhi. Thus, their "light" can also make us feel refreshed and peaceful. Moreover, their teachings at times also encourage the performance of good deeds, keeping the precepts, vegetarianism and Buddha Recitation. However, they diverge from the Buddhist sutras on certain crucial points [such as the need to escape Birth and Death]. Only by exercising careful judgement and understanding the Dharma in depth are we able to know.

Does this answer your question? The latter is addressing external visuals, but I would imagine that one can apply the criteria to dreams as well.

_/\_
metta

not1not2

And this:

Visionary scenes such as the above, called "internal realms" or "realms of the Self-Mind," have their origin in a thought of peace and stillness, or are caused by wholesome seeds generated by Buddha or Mantra Recitation. They appear suddenly and are lost immediately. The practitioner should not be attached to them, thinking that they are real, nor should he remember them fondly. It is a very great mistake to develop nostalgia for them, thinking how ethereal, calm and peaceful, beautiful and well-adorned they were, then day-dream about them, unable to forget them, longing for their reappearance. The ancients have criticized such thoughts as "scratching in advance and waiting for the itch." This is because these scenes have their origin in diligent exertion and appear temporarily. They have no true existence. We should realize that when the practitioner exerts a certain level of effort, the scenes and features particular to that level will appear naturally.

This is in reference to a vision in the waking state, but in one's internal vision. Still, this particular statement is Very important and applies to dreams. One would do very well to take these words seriously.

Anyway, back to ghosties.

take care

_/\_
metta

harlan

Easy come...easy go. No attachments to empty phenomena.

Brigid

Nicely said, Harlan.

Not1,

I read the whole thing and found it very helpful. I don't understand it all but I think I have an understanding of the important parts, like the one you highlighted above.

And also,

Anyway, back to ghosties.

LOL!!

Brigid