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A Question about Zen....I'm confused.
Makarov
Explorer
* I hope nothing I say here insults anyone. If it does, I apologize profusely. It is not my intention to question or criticise ANY view or practice the reader may adhere to.
:wavey: Hi folks!
Everyone here has been great about answering all of my questions in the past so I'm gonna try once more and see if my luck holds.
Like many beginners or possibly many Buddhist in general, I am trying to find an answer to the question "what school of Buddhism do I best belong to?" OR "Which Buddhist Tradition" do I fit into based upon my current beliefs?
I know without a doubt that I fall under the umbrella tradition of Mahayana but defining where I am beyond this point eludes me. I like simplicity but I also like a bit of ritual and ceremony too. Tibetan/Vajrayana is a school which I think I understand as far as the visualization in meditation but I still find it a bit distracting/overly complicated due to all of the multi-colored deities and other tantric practices. Pure Land and Nichiren also seem to me to be a few steps removed from my understanding of basic Buddhsim as they add additional personalities and practices that I am not comfortable with. Zen sounds great, Soto Zen sounds even more to my liking as far as the simplicity BUT
....
Zen...I like most of what I have read about it BUT, the following quote which I have taken from a book troubles me. "The Soto Zen practitioner is encouraged to clear the mind of all thoughts and concepts without making any efforts towards enlightenment until enlightenment occurs". Further readings tell me that Zen practitioners avoid the study of scriptures, ceremonial rituals and even practicing good actions and place all of their emphasis on achieving enlightenment through meditation alone.
To me this almost doesn't sound like Buddhism but the same texts go to great lengths make clear that Zen Buddhist still observe the precepts and basic beliefs of all other Buddhist traditions. I'm confused. How can you claim to be Buddhist if all you do is sit facing a wall and meditate waiting for enlightenment to "just happen"?
I'm lost and I can't find my home. Will someone please help me?:cheer:
:wavey: Hi folks!
Everyone here has been great about answering all of my questions in the past so I'm gonna try once more and see if my luck holds.
Like many beginners or possibly many Buddhist in general, I am trying to find an answer to the question "what school of Buddhism do I best belong to?" OR "Which Buddhist Tradition" do I fit into based upon my current beliefs?
I know without a doubt that I fall under the umbrella tradition of Mahayana but defining where I am beyond this point eludes me. I like simplicity but I also like a bit of ritual and ceremony too. Tibetan/Vajrayana is a school which I think I understand as far as the visualization in meditation but I still find it a bit distracting/overly complicated due to all of the multi-colored deities and other tantric practices. Pure Land and Nichiren also seem to me to be a few steps removed from my understanding of basic Buddhsim as they add additional personalities and practices that I am not comfortable with. Zen sounds great, Soto Zen sounds even more to my liking as far as the simplicity BUT
....Zen...I like most of what I have read about it BUT, the following quote which I have taken from a book troubles me. "The Soto Zen practitioner is encouraged to clear the mind of all thoughts and concepts without making any efforts towards enlightenment until enlightenment occurs". Further readings tell me that Zen practitioners avoid the study of scriptures, ceremonial rituals and even practicing good actions and place all of their emphasis on achieving enlightenment through meditation alone.
To me this almost doesn't sound like Buddhism but the same texts go to great lengths make clear that Zen Buddhist still observe the precepts and basic beliefs of all other Buddhist traditions. I'm confused. How can you claim to be Buddhist if all you do is sit facing a wall and meditate waiting for enlightenment to "just happen"?
I'm lost and I can't find my home. Will someone please help me?:cheer:
0
Comments
I don't think that's all it includes...
If that were the case, there wouldn't be hundreds of years of Zen teachings.
There are other schools of Buddhist traditions that focus more on the enlightenment of the practitioner - more than helping out in society. I think HHDL has been asked this question not too recently and his response was something like "we need to change that and become associated with society and helping others more".
Although... what I say should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't know that much about Soto Zen -vs- Zen. So... possibly Soto Zen does promote little concern for the scriptures and does promote... just sitting.
-bf
Let me preface my response with this: I'm a novice. I've only really started a more sustained practice in the last 6-8 months. I do, however, attend a local Zen center that is a 'blend' of Rinzai/Soto (White Plum Lineage). With that said:
Until about 8 months ago, most of my experience of Buddhism was vicarious, learned in books. It's armchair Buddhism, which is important and has played an important role in coming to my current, budding practice. In my limited experience, I think what we often read in books is misleading. While perhaps Soto/Zen may place less emphasis on scriptures, ceremonies, than other schools, particularly, say, any of the Vajrayana, the emphasis is practice.
Soto/Zen emphasizes sitting becuse this is one of the simplest ways to strengthen our mindfulness muscles. However, this is not the only thing that exists. Every moment is, potentially, a moment for practice. Part of not experiencing our lives dualistically also means to dispell perception between practice and non-practice, between sitting and non-sitting. Our lives are our lives. Our lives are precious because this is the opportunity we have to practice.
What may be misleading is that I believe in the center I attend, beginners are encouraged to first develop a strong sitting practice, and sometime later they are encouraged to study scripture. Without first having a solid practice, scripture study is meaningless. Soto/Zen is about experence--just as all Buddhism is. Each school/approach emphasizes different things.
While reading is good, practice is best. Try it out for yourself. Find a center. Sit with them for a month. Two months. Attend talks. Ask questions. Then try another center, either of a different school or even just another center of the same. The point is while it's vicarious, it's someone else's experience not your own.
Your advice is excellent however I find myself in a region where the closest Buddhist group of any sort is 3 hours away in Kansas City. The City of Springfield, Mo is rather isolated when it comes to things Buddhist and so for now, an Armchair Buddhist is unfortunately all I can be. I leave in 4 days for a 10 day Vipassana Meditation Retreat at Dhama Pikasa in Pecatonica, Illinois and I hope this will improve my meditation skills as well as give my entire Buddhist practice more direction and a jumpstart.
Those of us living in areas where there is no active Buddhist group or organization of any kind don't have the access to experienced practitioners or a Sangha which eventually becomes a necessity. This is one reason why I value the comments and advice I get here on NewBuddhist Forum. In a sense, this site functions as my online Sangha at least in terms of Q and A.
I'm tellin ya...those French Buddhist are a breed apart!
:-)
I can't help but try to figure out what this means.
Certainly hanging out with the ascetics didn't get Siddartha closer to what he was looking for. In fact, the direction he was taking with the practice of the ascetics was as far away from the Middle Path as one could get.
Buddha did teach about the Sangha. But the Sangha isn't the end-all-be-all. I don't believe Buddha's teachings implied that without a Sangha - you were screwed.
I don't believe that everyone that has ever heard and followed Buddha's teachings (or any other englightened person) had the opportunity to hang out with a group of like minded people.
What about other families or people that have lived so far away from a "sangha" yet still took the teachings of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. into their lives and practiced it.
Being an "armchair" Buddhist - following the Path - living the teachings - IMHO - is much better than not following his teachings at all.
-bf
I bow to your graciousness and wisdom. There really should be no difference in seriousness or authenticity between a practicing Buddhist based upon his/her membership in a Sangha. Granted I feel that I am moving forward in my understanding and practice at a much slower pace because I do not have the immediate, live access to others in my area...but I am still plodding along and making headway.
I will continue to follow the Path (though I may frequently require a flashlight) and continue to try and live the teachings (though my understanding of them may at times seem cloudy).
Onward through the Fog!
Oh my...I smell quicksand ahead.
If I toss one of you a rope.... please pull.
I don't have a sangha other than this one either. I know what you mean when you say you feel the need for a community. I do, too. I think it's a matter of personality and personal choice. I'm going into the "Big City" soon to have a look see.
Either way, I think we're all on the path and what will be, will be. None of us will practice in the same way, just like the Buddha knew. This sangha, however, has been golden for me. Probably one of the greatest things that's ever happened in my life.
I'm just a slight tug away, Erich. You have a lovely way with words, by the way.
Brigid
BOW Meditation Group
205 W. Walnut Street, Springfield MO 65806
Contact: Anagarika Dipa
Tel: (417) 864-4559
Email: sisterdipa@yahoo.com
Web site: www.geocities.com/sisterdipa
Tradition: Theravada
This was from Buddhanet > World Directory > The Americas > North American Directory > Missouri
There are also centers in Tulsa, which is, what, 1.5 hours from Springfield?
I'm from Oklahoma originally and that's what I seem to remember.
I thought the original question was about 'Zen', not about Sangha. Of course, we all do the best we can but I think lots of centers will work around distance to encourage practice.
The thing is to 'start where you are', wherever that is. A center can help encourage and point you in the way their traditions allow. You're doing the right thing. I agree, boards like this can be wonderful resources.
Peace
The Sanga dates to a time before the written word and as you have realised the world has changed a lot since then, so perhaps a redefinition is not inappropriate. There is also the question of the value of teaching at all of the "centres" that seem to be popping up as fast as food outlets. If one looks at how the west has turned yoga into a commodity, it does raise doubt as to wether the the value of the teaching can be sustained. To study older texts and use the internet to access teachers in other parts of the world may be a sensible supplement. You know the zen saying about putting all your eggs in one basket (just kidding).
Thanks for your info about the BOW group here in Springfield. I am unable to attend their once a week meetings due to my work schedule that is not very flexible. I am lucky to be scheduled for the 20 hours of work I get each week and cannot afford to give-up an 8 hour shift every week to sit for an hour in their Sangha. I have however corresponded quite regularly with, and receive monthly newsletters from The RIME Center in Kansas City which is about 3 hours North of me.
Once again, schedules and distance do not allow me to attend anything there regularly however...after working closely with RIME I have managed to arrange to take my formal Refuge Vows there in June. It will require driving up late at night after work, then staying overnight in a hotel prior to the service and ceremony, something I obviously can't do every week. The formal taking of my Refuge Vows will be a costly but worthwhile exception.