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The Impermanent, Ever-Changing Self and Enlightenment
So is enlightenment empty of itself? Its empty of sufferinf/false self/samsara But is enlightenment empty of enlightenment?
Yes, enlightenment is empty. Even Nirvana is empty.
I like the way Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñapāramitā sutra puts it:
"Nirvāṇa is an illusion. Even if there is anything greater than Nirvāṇa, that too will be only an illusion."400 A Bodhisattva is a mere dream. Even the Buddha is only a name. Even the Perfect Wisdom itself is a mere name. Dreams, echoes, reflections, images, mirage, illusion, magic, void—such are all objects of intellect.
‘the Large sutra on Perfect Wisdom’ is also expressed the same idea:
"What is the emptiness of ultimate reality? "Ultimate reality" means Nirvāṇa. And that Nirvāṇa is empty of Nirvāṇa, on account of its being neither unmoved nor destroyed. For such is its essential nature".410
Hey xabir
So enlightenment is empty of defilements,which means in enlightenment defilements do not exist,suffering does not exist,the 3 poisons do not exist correct?
When you say enlightenment is empty of itself,you are treating enlightenment just like the defilments,suffering,an 3 poisons,u are effectivly saying enlightenment does not exist it is empty itself as it is empty of its defilements(nothing exists).
So enlightenment is empty of defilements,which means in enlightenment defilements do not exist,suffering does not exist,the 3 poisons do not exist correct?
When you say enlightenment is empty of itself,you are treating enlightenment just like the defilments,suffering,an 3 poisons,u are effectivly saying enlightenment does not exist it is empty itself as it is empty of its defilements(nothing exists).
No. Emptiness means empty of four extremes: existence, non-existence, both and neither.
Empty of a real self. Empty of self. Because everything is empty, including Nirvana, it is called 'illusion' - like a mirage, appearing but coreless and insubstantial. The Buddha explained when asked what emptiness is, to be empty of self (or empty of true existence, that can be pinned down).
I do not agree with certain Shentong (empty-of-other) interpretations.
So enlightenment is empty of defilements,which means in enlightenment defilements do not exist,suffering does not exist,the 3 poisons do not exist correct?
When you say enlightenment is empty of itself,you are treating enlightenment just like the defilments,suffering,an 3 poisons,u are effectivly saying enlightenment does not exist it is empty itself as it is empty of its defilements(nothing exists).
No. Emptiness means empty of four extremes: existence, non-existence, both and neither.
Empty of a real self. Empty of self. Because everything is empty, including Nirvana, it is called 'illusion' - like a mirage, appearing but coreless and insubstantial. The Buddha explained when asked what emptiness is, to be empty of self (or empty of true existence, that can be pinned down).
I do not agree with certain Shentong (empty-of-other) interpretations.
Hey xabir
Thats okay i dont agree with rantong views. Also there are many types of emptiness which one are you talking about?And i dont remeber emptiness(all void) as being the 4 extremes hmmm.
Also dualities of existance and none existance can be explained in context.
I guess my question at the core is: if Mahayana schools state that we all have Buddha nature, how does impermanence come into play? Is Buddha nature permanent? This has always confused me.
A popular zen sutra talks about this, the Platform Sutra.
"Hui Neng said, “The Dharma Master has been lecturing The Nirvana Sutra which says that to understand the Buddha-nature is the Buddhadharma which is the Dharma of non-dualism.
As Kao Kuei Te Wang Bodhisattva said to the Buddha, ‘Does violating the four serious prohibitions, committing the five rebellious acts, or being an icchantika and the like cut off the good roots and the Buddha-nature?’
“The Buddha replied, ‘There are two kinds of good roots: the first, permanent; the second impermanent. The Buddha-nature is neither permanent nor impermanent. Therefore it is not cut off.’
“That is what is meant by non-dualistic. The first is good and the second is not good. The Buddha-nature is neither good nor bad. That is what is meant by nondualistic. Common people think of the heaps and realms as dualistic. The wise man comprehends that they are non-dualistic in nature. The non-dualistic nature is the Buddha-nature.”
If the Buddha taught that the self is in a constant state of change, what happens to self when it reaches Enlightenment?
I can find no evidence in the Buddhist canon that the Buddha taught that the self or âtman is in a constant state of change (anitya). His discourses show that, instead, the five khandhas, which constitute our pyscho-physcial body, change, not the self.
"What is this Self ? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed ’the Self ’ [atman]" (Mahaparinirvana Sutra).
If the Buddha taught that the self is in a constant state of change, what happens to self when it reaches Enlightenment?
I can find no evidence in the Buddhist canon that the Buddha taught that the self or âtman is in a constant state of change (anitya). His discourses show that, instead, the five khandhas, which constitute our pyscho-physcial body, change, not the self.
"What is this Self ? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed ’the Self ’ [atman]" (Mahaparinirvana Sutra).
I was just going to post something about the True Self from the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. The sutra says the True Self is what remains when the illusion of a mundane self is lost. The True Self is permanent and indestructible, like diamond. IIRC, it also says that the Buddha nature, the tathagatagarbha, is permanent.
The Buddha taught a Middle Way between a permanent, mundane self, and non-self, so some people interpret that to mean that the self, like the Buddha embryo, the tathagatagarbha, is ever-evolving toward Buddhahood. In any case, my question in the OP was: what happens when Enlightenment is reached? And thanks to KarunaDharmakaya, who posted about the Nirvana Sutra, I have an answer. The Buddha taught that the mundane self falls away and what's left is the True Self.
True Self. That's a new one for me. So this True Self, Buddhahood, the Bliss state, are permanent states, according to the Sutra. Impermanence doesn't apply to Buddhahood and the True Self.
Comments
So enlightenment is empty of defilements,which means in enlightenment defilements do not exist,suffering does not exist,the 3 poisons do not exist correct?
When you say enlightenment is empty of itself,you are treating enlightenment just like the defilments,suffering,an 3 poisons,u are effectivly saying enlightenment does not exist it is empty itself as it is empty of its defilements(nothing exists).
Empty of a real self. Empty of self. Because everything is empty, including Nirvana, it is called 'illusion' - like a mirage, appearing but coreless and insubstantial. The Buddha explained when asked what emptiness is, to be empty of self (or empty of true existence, that can be pinned down).
I do not agree with certain Shentong (empty-of-other) interpretations.
Thats okay i dont agree with rantong views.
Also there are many types of emptiness which one are you talking about?And i dont remeber emptiness(all void) as being the 4 extremes hmmm.
Also dualities of existance and none existance can be explained in context.
now it is cured
what is there?
"What is this Self ? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed ’the Self ’ [atman]" (Mahaparinirvana Sutra).
sunakkata sutta in majjima nikaya says
why there is a likelihood of recurrence
(has not done what has to be done)
with a strong commitment to prevention
(has been doing what has to be done)
can come to a stage
(has done what has to be done)
The Buddha taught a Middle Way between a permanent, mundane self, and non-self, so some people interpret that to mean that the self, like the Buddha embryo, the tathagatagarbha, is ever-evolving toward Buddhahood. In any case, my question in the OP was: what happens when Enlightenment is reached? And thanks to KarunaDharmakaya, who posted about the Nirvana Sutra, I have an answer. The Buddha taught that the mundane self falls away and what's left is the True Self.
True Self. That's a new one for me. So this True Self, Buddhahood, the Bliss state, are permanent states, according to the Sutra. Impermanence doesn't apply to Buddhahood and the True Self.
http://nirvanasutra.net