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Dopie Question? Why are we in Samsara?

grainnegrainne
edited April 2006 in Buddhism Basics
Another dopie question from the Irish girl ....

Ok so I do believe it ... This is Samsara ... we have had countless lifetimes and eventually hopefully our own Buddha nature will get us to nirvana!!!

The buddhas are omniscient ... So why are we here at all? Why are we on this earth at all? Why aren't we all just buddhas and forget the middle stuff?

Its like in my Christian upbringing. We are born, we go through life we end up in heaven, if we do all the things we are supposed to on this life, I didn't understand the point of the middle bit then either!?!?!?

Comments

  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited April 2006
    I don't really know what to think of this grainne...

    At first I started thinking of stories about how people have died - gone to heaven and come back and such. I always thought, "man.... if I was in heaven and someone drug me back here...I'D BE PISSED!".

    I also thought of other stories about afterlife, heaven, hell, nirvana, pure land, etc. - and I wish dear Simon was here. He always has a great way of using big words to tell stories about how we humans change and warp things throughout our entire life.

    Except... sometimes the words are so big, I don't really understand what he's saying.

    -bf
  • XraymanXrayman Veteran
    edited April 2006
    BF the new ICEAGE2 movie describes this process with the character "Scratt" , you should see it-hilarious!

    I think the concept of samsara-is slightly different from where you come from in your christian upbrinnig grainne-samsara is nota punishment like hell-might be-it is more of a fact that suffering just happens-it is not meted out to you-it just "Is". our goal i suppose is to get off the samsaric roundabout and excell and leave here to get to Nirvana.

    Okay I'll level with you.... I DON"T KNOW! there I said it!

    regards.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2006
    grainne,

    The answer is tahna (craving).
    This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, I don't envision even one other fetter — fettered by which beings conjoined go wandering & transmigrating on for a long, long time — like the fetter of craving. Fettered with the fetter of craving, beings conjoined go wandering & transmigrating on for a long, long time."

    With craving his companion, a man
    wanders on a long, long time.
    Neither in this state here
    nor anywhere else
    does he go beyond
    the wandering- on.
    Knowing this drawback —
    that craving brings stress into play —
    free from craving,
    devoid of clinging,
    mindful, the monk
    lives the mendicant life.

    -Iti I.15

    No more tahna, no more birth.

    :)

    Jason
  • XraymanXrayman Veteran
    edited April 2006
    I thought it was Trishna?

    Trishna is the root of the word "Thirst" isn't it?

    regards,
    Xrayman
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Xrayman,

    Trishna is the Sanskrit word meaning "thirst" or "craving", while tahna is the Pali word meaning "thirst" or "craving". Trishna and tahna both mean exactly the same thing in their Buddhist context.

    Regards,

    Jason
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Grainne,

    Your question is one of the unanswerable questions that the Buddha always declined to answer just for that reason. It doesn't matter why we're here in samsara. The fact is we are here, we're suffering, and there is a way out of suffering. That's the only pertinent question to be concerned about. Questions regarding the origin of things or the reason why things are as they are arise from our deluded concept of linear time and space, which are illusions, so the questions themselves are products of our deluded minds and thus unanswerable. Do you follow me?

    Palzang
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Palzang..I've said it before and I'll say it again... you're a gem...
    This is great for me...It's a milestone, and I perceive progress, because....

    I do.

    I understand that.

    And thanks also to Elohim for his clarification. I get that, too.....




    Wow.



    (Inwardly smiling.....)
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    This is the ultimate panic inducing question with which I have tortured myself for 3 years. The fact that I'm able to post on this thread at all is very encouraging! LOL!

    Before I had read the responses I was expecting a list of "Don't knows". But we got Jason and Palzang's responses and I can't tell you how much I appreciate these responses and how much weight they have taken off my self burdened shoulders.

    Personally, this is the most important thread on this whole site for me. I'm following the advice of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and Jon Kabat-Zin and learning how to work with my panic and anxiety. This is priceless Buddhist practice and I'm fully aware of that and grateful for it. And now I have this thread to help me with that work and to keep me firmly in the middle.

    I know you have no idea how much this helps me and there aren't words to express it. All I can say is thank you very, very much.

    Brigid
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Brigid,

    Have you ever listened to Ajahn Brahmavamso's talk on Panic Attacks? Perhaps you may find it useful.

    :)

    Jason
  • TribesmanTribesman Explorer
    edited April 2006
    This has been my stumbling block for a long time now. It just doesn't satisfy me when people say it doesn't matter why we are here, we just are and have to deal with it. It's in our nature to ask these questions. It makes us who we are. It's what led me here. I don't think such questions can be so easily satisfactorily dismissed. Thing may be illusory but they also originated..... This has been twisting me in circles. Please don't take this as belligerance, this has just frustrated me for some time now and is really holding me back.
  • twobitbobtwobitbob
    edited April 2006
    Hi Tribesman,

    It might not satisfy you, but there might not be any reasons to explain or justify our existence, no matter how much we insist there simply must be, as we run up and down this side of the shore.

    Perhaps if your questioning nature has led you thus far then the questions have served their purpose and it's time to let them go - just like the raft that has served its purpose and becomes a burden if you carry it???

    This has been a stumbling block of mine too for a while, but i got dizzy chasing my own tail, so now i've found a stumbling block. There seems rather alot of stones to stumble over on this path
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Sorry guys...In my experience, the only stumbling blocks in our way are the ones we choose to put there ourselves....

    Just walk round them....
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Tribesman wrote:
    This has been my stumbling block for a long time now. It just doesn't satisfy me when people say it doesn't matter why we are here, we just are and have to deal with it. It's in our nature to ask these questions. It makes us who we are. It's what led me here. I don't think such questions can be so easily satisfactorily dismissed. Thing may be illusory but they also originated..... This has been twisting me in circles. Please don't take this as belligerance, this has just frustrated me for some time now and is really holding me back.


    I wasn't trying to dismiss the question. The point is there is no answer to this question. It's not a valid question because there really is no reason, nor is there a beginning and an end to existence. It's just our deluded minds that think there must be because we perceive time and space as real and concrete. In reality they're not. And it's not accurate to say that "it's in our nature to ask these questions" because our nature is in truth unlimited and unbounded. Our nature is in truth Buddhanature, and in Buddhanature all questions are answered even before being asked. I understand your frustration and what you're talking about as I've been there, but also please believe me when I tell you that these questions fall away, become irrelevant as you go deeper in your practice. So I agree with TwoBitBob - just keep goin' on!

    Palzang
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Allow me to be lazy, as I posted on another forum an applicable response to this and am simply copying and pasting:
    AllinOne,Apr 14 2006, 01:19 AM wrote:
    The buddha called this sort of thing an 'unfathomable'. In other words, it cannot be adequately determined. Any 'beginning' point or source we can name or fathom begs further questioning. We say god created it, or the Big Bang started it. Well, then by what means, and how did those means get there? The questions go on and on. The buddha advised us not to give too much thought to these questions (as pressing as they may seem):

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta...tb0.html#poison
    "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

    "In the same way, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

    Honestly, as long as we are under the sway of craving, hatred & ignorance, we aren't fit to attend to this matter anyway. Anything we come up with will simply be a fabricated response based on past contact. See the Brahmajala sutta:

    http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_w...ajala_sutta.htm
    "When those ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past, the future, or both, having fixed views, put forward views in sixty-two different ways, that is conditioned by contact."

    "That all of these (Eternalists and the rest) should experience that feeling without contact is impossible."

    "With regard to all of these …, they experience these feelings by repeated contact through the six sense-bases; [71]feeling conditions craving; craving conditions clinging; clinging conditions becoming; becoming conditions birth; birth conditions ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, sadness and distress. When, monks, a monk understands as they really are the arising and passing away of the six bases of contact, their attraction and peril, and the deliverance from them, he knows that which goes beyond all these views."[72]

    "Whatever ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past or the future or both, having fixed views on the matter and put forth speculative views about it, these are all trapped in the net with its sixty-two divisions, and wherever they emerge and try to get out, they are caught and held in this net. Just as a skilled fisherman or his apprentice might cover a small piece of water with a fine-meshed net, thinking : ‘Whatever larger creatures there may be in this water, they are all trapped in the net, caught, and held in the net’, so it is with all these : they are trapped and caught in this net."

    I know this doesn't give an actual answer to your question, but it is still relevant, imo.

    _/\_
    metta
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Elohim wrote:
    Brigid,

    Have you ever listened to Ajahn Brahmavamso's talk on Panic Attacks? Perhaps you may find it useful.

    :)

    Jason

    Thanks, Jason! I'm downloading it now.
    Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

    Sincerely,
    Brigid
  • KnightofBuddhaKnightofBuddha
    edited April 2006
    This question did perplex me for some time even though I do not accept the idea of past lives and such. Why am I here? What is my purpose? What must I do? These questions lead me to question my original religious upbringing. Questioning is what lead me on the path for greater knowledge. The need to satisfy my human curiousity lead me to a variety of different religious paths.

    I don't know exactly why my inquisitive mind seemed to kick into a higher gear than many of my peers. Renat Descarte's "Method of Doubt" (my current method to discern the truth) inadvertently lead me to Buddhism. I was fascinated to find a man 2,500 years ago on the other side of the world was asking the same questions that I had.

    I soon found the answers to those questions:

    -I am not here for any predetermined reason. I am the acculmination of the actions of generations before me.

    -I did a lengthy bit somewhere else on the purpose of life so I'll keep it short. My life ultimately has no purpose. But since I am here, I see no reason not to enjoy my life and live it to the fullest. Also, I am a compassionate person and do not like to see others suffer. I find great fullfillment in helping others. That is my purpose.

    -What must I do? Nothing. I create my own destiny. There is nothing that I must do only what I want to do really.

    I really don't bother myself with these questions anymore. But keep asking questions. It is the best thing you can do for yourself.
  • grainnegrainne
    edited April 2006
    Loads of good answers ... as usual .. would expect nothing less by the way

    Elohim .. I couldn't open that link ... could you give me the URL when you get a chance?

    Brigid ... Well it appears that we are linked somehow .. all your postings reflect the stuff that goes on in my head ... Hope your brain isn't as confused as mine gets. Maybe it's your name with the Irish connections and all that ....
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Grainne,

    Check out this link:

    http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=4&min=60&orderby=titleA&show=20
    It's a little over half way down or so (alphabetically arranged).

    Lot's of other good audio there too.

    _/\_
    metta
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    grainne wrote:
    Loads of good answers ... as usual .. would expect nothing less by the way

    Elohim .. I couldn't open that link ... could you give me the URL when you get a chance?

    Brigid ... Well it appears that we are linked somehow .. all your postings reflect the stuff that goes on in my head ... Hope your brain isn't as confused as mine gets. Maybe it's your name with the Irish connections and all that ....


    It's the Irish thing, I'm sure. If you knew my full name you'd laugh. If you have any Corr's in your family (not my last name), then we're probably cousins! LOL! Even though my great great grandfather came over in 1847 the blood takes a long time to dilute. ;)

    Brigid (My real first name)
  • XraymanXrayman Veteran
    edited April 2006
    mmmm I'm really looking a lot like chopped liver over here....:-/
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Why, Xray? What's the matter?

    I just noticed that the whole "why" question really wears heavily on Tribesman, Grainne and me. Is this really an Irish neurosis? Maybe it's just my imagination. Surely that's just fanciful thinking...Weird.

    Brigid
  • sharpiegirlsharpiegirl
    edited April 2006
    The fact is: HERE I AM! What to do with myself while I am here........that is my focus.

    I read an interesting paragraph in THE TIBETAN BOOK OF LIVING AND DYING and unfortunately I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. But it was something to the effect of...when we have a negative sitution in our lives, we can feel a sense of relief, for it is karma coming to completion.I apologize, I will look for the page number and get :-/ back to you.........:scratch:
  • TribesmanTribesman Explorer
    edited April 2006
    Apologies for the tardiness of my reply but many thanks. Very helpful.
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